Tuesday, October 25, 2016

If They Have Contact With Your Abusers, It's Not Good

I wish I could get Ollie  Matthews in on this case, but I don't have any money to donate.  Ollie is good about hacking through the narcissistic fog. This conversation confused me.  Please translate if you can. I will share my thoughts below. 

I had a recent conversation with a cousin that bugged me. In it he tells me I am "paranoid" for asking him if he was a flying monkey for my mother.  This was the same response another cousin gave me if you remember.

Yeah I let one in back under the door.  I made a huge mistake. This cousin volunteers with wildlife and seems like a nice guy. I felt bad about not talking to him so much. He is the cousin who came to visit in 2014 for an afternoon. He is the cousin who reached out to Aunt Scapegoat before she died, so I have a more forgiving attitude about him then the others. Maybe it's getting me in trouble. I had ghosted him on Facebook with a few others but that is where he contacted me. 

The other week, he sent me a video still of me at 5-6 years old next to the Aunt Who Loved Me. It was the time I was living with my aunt, and these were happy memories. He was not born yet, and his older brother shows up at around 6 months old. His mother is there smiling at me. He has promised me a copy of this video. I fell for it and talked to him really wanting the video because of those good memories. I put important comments in red.

So am I paranoid? Do My Feelings Make Others Feel Bad?

Let me share the conversation on Facebook, I had with him. Like him, I am trying to make the attempt, I did with my brother which failed to open his eyes. Maybe I do that too much. He came to me first to show me the video still. My accusation concerns me wondering if he is a flying monkey. His response is that I am paranoid.

He promised a copy of the video but then I didn't hear back for a few weeks. He went on vacation in the last couple days. I wonder if I had been "had" or if he had contacted me at the behest of my mother.  It's like I have to deaden enough emotions to deal with these people as it is. He is in computer IT, and is one of my relatives who got a very good 6 figure job right out of college.


I want to ask you something direct, when I told you about bad things that happened to me, or about relatives who treated me wrong, why don't you respond?
It is rather invalidating.
Do you not believe me?


Peep continued:

 I feel that way when I talk to you. You sometimes will say and do nice things but even here, I worry you only contacted me at the behest of my mother.
I find myself thinking "Will he send that video, maybe maybe not, he is on vacation"
You ignore a lot of what I write you, so I think why bother. I got the same close out in general from the entire family.
I suppose everyone has believed my mothers lies. Please don't contact me for my mother again.
and if I am wrong, there's a reason people in the family don't trust each other. There's so many liars.
Your trip looks fun I have enjoyed the pictures.
Our communication won't work if you are too afraid to say anything to me. I can tell you are desperately afraid of saying anything "bad" about any relatives.


My Cousin: 

I don't contact you on the behest of anybody but myself.
Sorry I don't always respond right away, or at all. Sometimes I get distracted with other things, sometimes I forget.


 I hope you are telling me the truth.
I had another relative promise me pictures and then told me
Oh your mother told me not to send them.
I know I get busy too.
I need to know
Do you believe me
when I tell you about my mother
because if you do not
I will walk and leave you in peace then

My Cousin:

I do believe she mistreated you (and continues to do so)


Thank you
The family stood by and watched her treat me like that for years.
you are young so I do not hold you responsible.
younger then me.
Do you understand why I do not have contact with some others who are older?

My Cousin: 

I don't think you are adopted. I think you are paranoid (and it is uncomfortable when I am the target of your paranoia) - but that is the result of not having the parenting you deserved.

I am not paranoid, that is what you have been told about me
If that is your true feeling about me [....]
this worries me.

My Cousin:

I understand you not wanting to maintain ties to people that looked the other way when you were being abused.


My mother has used others as flying monkeys in the past. I was not sure in your case
It is hard to know who to trust.

My Cousin:

That's kind of a funny analogy, as messed up as it is!


Thank you for understanding me not wanting to maintain ties with people who looked the other way.
It is best term for it.

My Cousin: 

I hope you don't isolate yourself. The whole world isn't against you. However, I think your feelings make people uncomfortable sometimes - and they might invalidate you to maintain their own "reality" (with a small r).


I was isolated by our family first. I was left out and cut off by other people.  [.....]
My feelings are valid, some may think oh why doesn't she let the past be the past
but the abuse continued to the very day
I walked away

My Cousin: 

About a year ago I was talking with [Aunt Denial], and she told me about a conflict you two had and how she cried about it afterwards - she felt like she was being unfairly accused. And I think you told me that you wrote her off. I can brush off accusations, but some people give up.

Peep: {here I discuss aunt's manipulations, those were definitely croccodile tears or made up--when I went NC with her she had told me she was too busy to write me as detailed on this blog and she never responded to my answer.}

My Cousin: 

I was just trying to make the point that you have made me hurt and uncomfortable with accusations, and that one other person (Aunt Denial) has told me she felt the
 same way. I let it roll off my back. But other people may just turn their back and shut you out. Which sucks. And I don't want to see that happen within the family.


You really were ignoring my statements, maybe letting it roll off your back without any malice to it all
which is why I kept in conversation with you
but with Aunt Denial, I did not give false accusations
it was reality.

My Cousin:

I know I've felt guilty in the past for not getting back to you. And feeling guilty is unpleasant, and it's human nature to go into a place of avoidance (i.e. I don't want to contact Peep, because I feel bad about not getting back to her, and I don't want to feel bad, so I'll just put it out of my mind...).

That's a cycle I've tried to become mindful of in myself, and face head on (at least sometimes)


I dont mean to make people feel guilty, the fact you can feel guilt gives
you one up above several family members
I believe they never feel guilt so you see what you get. LOL

I am just trying to air things out here...

[discussion of narcissism, shared Smakintosh's video "Narcissists Subvert Entire Families", he brings up a relative who ignored him]

My cousin:
But I realized that with him, I was letting my resentment make it impossible for that relationship to heal. The relationship couldn't get better as long as I held on to such resentments. (And it sucks that your mother is so sick , you can't ever have a good relationship with her -- you're best off without contact)

Yes since your father has a conscience, you could heal the relationship, he was merely not thinking or focusing on other things, etc. You could have the relationship heal.

[discussion ends here, he promises me a copy of the video, take care etc]


Some thoughts I am having.....

1. I noticed he focused on his discomfort and the discomfort of the family over "my emotions". This is not someone I harangue but probably have a talk to 5-6 times a year. Remember he contacted me first and this discussion came later.

2. It bothers me how he told me my emotions bothered him and others. When he referred to "reality" small R, it sounded like he knew I was upsetting people via some truthful confrontations but there was also this message, "your feelings make people feel bad". 

2. It scares me how Aunt Denial told him she cried. I told my husband how this conversation and he said, "There is no way Aunt Denial cried, she didn't care that much about anything. I can't even imagine the woman crying at all." I suspected her of being a narcissist too though more covert in this case, but now this is huge evidence she is a horrible manipulator. Aunt Denial when I went no contact did not respond to me or say "I am sorry, or "Can we talk?" She had shoved me away multiple times. The idea that she would be crying her eyes out over me is foreign as crazy. This tells me that there has been severe manipulation from that angle too.

4. I heard the comments about the avoidance of guilt from another cousin.  Now this may be an Aspie blind spot, but doesn't guilt push people to action or to "fix the problem"? I have gotten behind on emails with friends and phone calls but don't avoid them as the answer to that problem.

5. He admits the abuse which is a further step then others, but he has kept contact with my mother. I forget who it was, but one ACON writer and spokesperson said, "Never trust anyone who keeps contact with your abuser". It may have been several I heard this from.

6. He tells me not to isolate myself. What is that all about?

7. I feel like crap whenever I talk to any of them. It is hard to even explain. He at least is one that admits a few things, but I am on the fence on how to proceed with him. The whole matter is depressing. The others have obviously lied and manipulated him like Aunt Denial.

8. What scares me is he mentions "accusations" like I call him up screaming he did something wrong, every minute. The only accusation I've ever given him is the one you see above, that he contacted me on behest of my mother.

They are colder and clinical people I can't talk to. This one may have emotions but he is definitely someone I won't make a habit to open up to.

I made too many mistakes here, I JADED, I opened up to someone who has contact with my abusers. He may not be a "bad" person like them but he is definitely influenced by them and in their fog. That can bring harm to an escaped scapegoat in itself.

 I have kept him on my Facebook to even tell me when deaths occur in the family and he is the one who informed me of Aunt Scapegoat's death and my brother did too, but I no longer have contact with my brother.

I think some scapegoats, there is that feeling of knowing no matter what you say or do, you always "lose" and with all of them too. I allowed my emotions to sway me wanting a copy of the video of me with my loved aunt almost taking a step back in my recovery.

I had felt better since going NC from the family. He revived old feelings in me of low-self worth and blame and I realize whenever I talk to any of them while in this case he admits my mother's misdeeds, I am always the one in the wrong and have "emotions" that are bad and wrong too all these people.  That is one thing I have noticed with all of them how they tell me I am always wrong.

He oddly got himself involved in my adoption questions, I had asked him if he ever heard anything and before he told me he went around asking everyone and they told him I wasn't. I never asked him to do this. He seems almost overly adamant about that issue because I had admitted to him I did not know either way. Whatever the rhyme or reason, I have to stay away. They make me feel bad and upset. ALL OF THEM.

Any opinions will be welcome here.


  1. Don't feel bad about letting someone from the past slip in .
    It happens. We still wish somewhere deep inside that things are OK. Even if they aren't. And that makes us vulnerable.
    It is weird that he went around asking about your adoption.
    Nosey Praker! Lol.
    He did seem like a mixed bag, so I can see why you wanted to trust him but sort of didn't. Trust your own instincts.
    It seems like you held your own,so that was good...
    I do hope he sends you the tape though. I never got mine so I know what a disappointment that is.

    1. Thanks, I hope I get the tape too, and thanks for understanding letting someone from the past slip in. Yeah we all have that wishful thinking...Sigh...He may have been wanting to be helpful with adoption but if they aren't going to tell me anything even a direct response like hey "Im your mother" here's a picture, they won't tell him the truth.

      He is a mixed bag which makes it all confusing. He lived far away for many years but has been back for two. Thanks for saying I held my own. It's true I have to listen to my instincts.

      Sorry you never got your tape.

  2. That was nosey parker. Typing too fast.
    I have always wondered whether my father was my real father.
    I have a lot of reasons to think he's not. I even used to dream about it before I really considered it. I often wonder whether I heard someone talking about it when I was very young and it's still in my subconscious.My aunt came to me in a dream once and pointed out my father. He was a Shriner. I was born in NJ. which is peopled with shriners so that is weird.Maybe it was just a looney dream. But there are other things too.
    I also thought of asking for DNA,but I knew they would never give it to me so I didn't bother.They would just make it like I was crazy. They are hiding a lot though. I think they vaulted it. I may never know. All my aunts are dead. It's possible no one knows but my mother. The weird thing is I could easily see my father having an affair and am pretty sure he did. But not my mother. My husband and I think they may have been swinging. They had constant parties and were big drinkers.

  3. He made a tempting offer and it is easy to fall for it. Hope you will get a DVD as he promised. If he does not send you a DVD within a year, you will know that he made a false promise. I'm glad you have been cautious and took a big risk asking him questions whether he was a flying monkey for your malignant narc "momster."

    When I was in third or fourth year of NC, my malignant narc adopted mother sent a card via my friend's address inviting me to my adopted sister's wedding. She offered to pay for my trip and motel stay. Since I already had a plan with a friend, I turned down her offer and told my friend of my decision. It turned out that my sister married a man who might be a father of her narc daughter. Her narc daughter was born 9 months after that wedding date. I'm glad I did not come to the wedding, because my sister married a narc man who eventually made my sister miserable. We ACONs know that narc parent usually approve of fellow narcs as their children's spouses. Since my sister walked out on her second or third husband, it was obvious she was miserable in that marriage. My adopted narc mother smeared against my sister by telling her friends that my sister walked out on a "good man." We know it's a bull.

    I think your cousin is conflicted and angry at the same time. He is a mentally messed young man. I think everybody in your "family" will make you feel bad about themselves, and some people outside your "family," especially your husband and friends, will be there for you. It might be a pattern for your "family" to make you feel bad about yourself since they are abusive people.

    1. Yes he made a very tempting offer, I remember that aunt with love and fond memories. I am smiling around her and in the Queen Spider and her consort videos I saw in my teens and early 20s, I am never smiling. I am scared and abused. I wrote more about this issue in another article. I will see if a video shows up but I am not counting on it. Yes I confronted him and that comes with some risk. He responded with talk of accusations and "paranoia". That is right from the mouth of other narcissists. I believe chances are no copy of the video will show up. I am not going to ask again, if it comes, fine, but my expectations are low.

      I am glad you turned down your narc adoptive mothers hoovering methods. I have turned down several things like this, they always try to buy you like offering motel stays. I was offered a hotel stay by brother for Aunt Scapegoats funeral but it was held at the hottest time of the year and I did not plan to go. I am glad you did not go either to deal with narcs and their manipulations. The marriage turned out badly, anyhow and in divorce. Sadly many women as a result of abusive parents end up with abusive men.

      I think my cousin is conflicted and angry too. He lived far away, moved back "home" and I can tell is trying to get close to a family, because he is not married and lonely, that will not meet the needs he wants met. I believe that will worsen because looking to my family for affection, feelings of closeness and loyalty will be a failed experiment. They treat him better because he has a good computer job and he is thin, but they will not be this place of solace and connection he seeks.

      Yes the family does make me feel bad about myself. They all have been trained to talk to me and respond to me in a certain way and there is no breaking through it. I will stick to good friends online and off and my husband. I have felt better keeping all narcs and enablers out of my life. My cousin is used to my narcissistic families abusive and cold ways. Even his comments about pushing aside guilty feelings instead of acting on them or allowing "guilt" to motivate one for a different behavior or action is part of their training. They all taught him to shut down his emotions too. I do not get on with people of that certain mindset in regular life so why attempt it for relatives? Thanks for your post.

  4. Sorry you had to go through that. It's scary to expose yourself to the insanity all over again. For me it feels like falling right back into what I think of as "the hole." It can happen so suddenly to me that I forget I was ever out of the hole and it seems like that's all that's real and I can't really remember my life as it is now.
    Even though it feels like you made a big mistake to interact with him, I think the only way to be sure that you need to be completely NC is by testing the waters again, like you did with your cousin here. People will tell you just stay NC, but you have to find out for yourself if there's anyone at all you can trust.
    I think you said it all when you said:
    He may not be a "bad" person like them but he is definitely influenced by them and in their fog. That can bring harm to an escaped scapegoat in itself.
    I think that's a very clear sighted way to look at it. Just because he wants to connect and just because he's not evil doesn't mean it's good for you to connect with him. In fact, it seems to be very bad for you. Why torture yourself with all those crappy feelings? I hope he sends you the video and I'm glad you have the still from the video already.
    In some ways people who are not evil but who are still enmeshed in the evil family system are the worst because they are partly reasonable and rational and partly in a fog and it makes it harder to identify the evil fog parts and can even make you doubt yourself and think you're crazy, like they do.
    Thank goodness you have a life and talents and interests that have nothing to do with them.

    1. Thanks anon. Yes it was too much to expose myself to it all again. You sum it up great calling it "the hole". Even if he is not evil himself, he brings "the hole" and all the feelings with him, and has inherited the views that the evil narcs hold. It was triggering. Thanks for telling me it made you almost not remember life now, that is how I felt. He triggered me to the past where I was in "defense" mode and scared and feeling hated and rejected all over again. I don't need that crap in my life. Thanks for understanding what I meant that this particular one is not evil but he is bad for me because he is in their fog, holds their world view and deeply influenced by them. He does not see what they are. He admits some abuses from the worse of the worse but that is not enough. Yes the crappy feelings were too torturous. I went NC with the ENTIRE LOT, even basically on that premise, I WAS TIRED OF BEING MADE FEEL CRAPPY and one theme I have noticed is they all make me defend myself for having emotions because they have none. Even the non-evil ones have adapted the "family" rules of not expressing emotions or in depth conversation.

      Yes he is not evil like the rest but he is still enmeshed in the family system, I agree with you they can be more dangerous to us, because they can make everything sound reasonable and rational, while we are the "horrible" ones who have chosen to isolated ourselves since we have left the family. Yes they can make us doubt ourselves, and think we are crazy. I thank God, I have a whole life outside them. Thank you too for mentioning that. I always lived in towns away from ANY FAMILY members. Thank God!

  5. Hoping you meant it when you said 'All opinions welcome here". You may not like my opinion but I hope you give it some thought.

    Have you ever had therapy? Talked to a really good psychologist? Because you seem to be very wrapped up in how others perceive you. Almost obsessive about it. You're obviously quite intelligent. Your writing is very clear, articulate and well thought out. Maybe try giving yourself more credit?

    Emotions are GREAT but not if they're overtaking your entire life. Managing emotions isn't easy but it's an excellent life skill. :)

    If a cousin of mine asked if I was a 'flying monkey', yeah, I'd be hurt and consider it an accusation. He makes a good point about your paranoia. Try to chill, Ms.peep, he seems like a nice man!


    1. That is what happens to ACONs, we are trained to spend our lives trying to fit a mold the narcissists make for us and told for years and years why we are "not good enough". I have written in other articles, that one aspect of recovery is no longer caring what others think. A scapegoat who can overcome that part of ACON abuse is doing well. I am trying to overcome 4 decades of scapegoating. LC allowed too much damage. It takes time.

      With emotions, I'm done having anyone tell me what to feel. I am not the normal personality in America which is now very emotionally closed down. Keep in mind I am artistic, the same thing that allows me to write well and to paint well is having those emotions and FEELING them. In a family where emotions are hated, I had no place, and one point of self love, is learning to accept things about myself that are different.

      I saw tons of therapists and psychologists. For a Aspie woman, I did have to pay attention to how I was perceived to SURVIVE. In fact I had to learn to "cloak" to survive in society and stay employed: this is how I managed being so autistic and holding employment like art teacher at a juvenile home and residential counselor. That means no stims, suppression of my intellect [NTs don't want to hear an Aspies favorite subjects] and emotions very early on. At this age, I'm tried of trying to ram myself the square peg into the round hole. I also know the acceptance I was so into getting when young is never going to happen and not with the family. The family is very NT, there was no connection with a young Aspie.

      The cousin is "nicer" then the others. I don't think one accusation though, makes for a criteria of paranoia, I do think he got that from elsewhere and that's not paranoia just reality. When I asked him about being a flying monkey, remember I said I could be wrong, and there was "trust" issues.


  6. Thank you for the link. I'm reading it right now!

    And thank you for your, again, well-thought out reply.

    I had forgotten the Asperger's part of the equation (because you're such an eloquent writer!)and agree that a diagnosis of that can definitely skew your perceptions.

    It appears to me, from reading some of your posts, that you're a pretty cool lady. You're obviously quite intelligent, artistically talented (nice painting!) and brave (not afraid to say what you think!). Also, *I* would love to hear about your favorite topics!

    It's a bummer that you don't see yourself as 'worthy'. You most definitely are. :) Oh, and really, MOST families are somewhat dysfunctional. What you see on FB is definitely the *sanitized* version! So don't feel badly about that. Everyone has a story and a past and some kind of baggage. That I know for sure.

    Hey, at least you have a husband and a years-long successful marriage! lol That's a TON more than most people.


    1. Thanks.

      Actually Aspergers helps your perceptions. We are detail noticers.
      Thanks for saying I am cool and talented.
      I do see myself as worthy, but have left those who do not.

      Sure even normal families have foibles but there's a line where psycho-criminals from the pits of hell and soul-murderers begins, and normal faults of average folks and their troubles end. My family crossed that line long ago.

      Yes I am happy to have my husband too. :)