Forgiveness was never on the menu for me. I never thought of it until I found AC Blogs and saw all the "discussions" about the necessity to "forgive" and "you forgive for yourself!"<And BTW, what the hell does that even MEAN? It was as if I had run into a bunch of bobble heads nodding their heads up and down, "yep, yep, yep..."
Warning: Rant Ahead. (Not directed at you, Peep; it's a general "you") YK, sometimes I wonder: Is this just another line on a check off list you need to complete for being "good enough" to just be who you are? Do you even think-deeply-about these concepts? Do you ever really "listen" to the inane shit you write? Do you even understand what "checking off the boxes" means? Do you understand how offensive it is when you insist everyone think in lockstep with YOU? Do you have a clue when you're shaking your proverbial finger an inch away from some one's face you're doing the same damn thing as your EP-using a shaming tactic? That unsolicited advice isn't advice, it's another way of telling someone their way of doing, thinking, feeling, hell even existing is "less than" or less valuable than your's?
It seems to me this very black and white, all or nothing thinking is a huge flea for ACs. CB Parents demonstrate this polarity all the time: This rigidity and insistence life is lived only in polarities, good/bad, right/wrong etc. reflects such a paucity of human experience, maturity and understanding that most of life is lived in the grey areas between the two, not exclusively IN those polarities. For example, EParents consistently report their estranged AC "hates" them. HUH? The AC NEVER SAID THAT! It just doesn't occur to them there are almost endless mental/emotional/ psychological states between love and hate for example. What an impoverished view of the human experience. Or maybe it's some Projection on their part as well, who knows.
Since I've managed to not "forgive" for decades and still haven't been struck by lightening, spontaneously combusted or otherwise been "run over by the Karma Bus" (what ever the hell that is) or become some "bitter, angry" etc. old broad I'm just delivering a message from the "Dark Side." ;-)
No, you do not have to "forgive." Would you forgive a bear for being a bear? Your dog or cat for being a dog or a cat? Of course not! That's just who.they.are. If you can understand this reasoning, you can understand the conclusion: Genuine Acceptance rather than ostentatious self-indulged self-centered "Forgiveness" a la "Looka me! See how HUMBLE/Holey/Righteous I am!" (Oh BS) is a hella more honest. This crap just makes me feel like I just wanna quietly get your attention to tell you your skirt is stuck in your pantyhose in the back which kind of detracts from your belief in your mein of gravitas.
So if ya haven't "forgiven," don't worry about it. Despite the dire warnings, you're still as good, as human, as real as anyone else. And maybe living your life in the grey areas with all the sloppy, messy, joyful, sad, funny etc. places that reflects genuine honesty and a wealth of human experiences rather than superficial compliance with someone else's "acceptability check list." TW
How do you forgive people who don't want your forgiveness and don't think they ever have done anything wrong? It's impossible and as I wrote on the other article linked above, I went down forgiveness highway only to be get burned double.
I remember trying to force my feelings into the forgiveness box. Is forgiveness even real when done under duress or under societal pressure. I know I get tired of the fake forgiveness pushed out there, as if we are supposed to shut off our brains and becoming smiling pod people, it enables the evil. They know they will be "forgiven" for no matter what they do.
Oh definitely it's another line on the check off oppression list, along with the "be rich" mandates and have a "perfect body", enemies aren't allowed, you are supposed to be palsy walsy with everyone no matter what they did to you.
The certain blog writings "just forgive" and do false smiles are full of it. One primary one, she is hanging out on and supporting blogs where people are proud of being psychopaths that one and her so called "advice".
So many ACONS got abused by the forgive or else people. They are your parents you have to forgive. What I remember is nobody told them to shape up, everyone told me it was my responsibility to "forgive" and take more abuse.
I agree the grey areas are ignored by far too many. With narcs they do that polarity thing far too well.
I don't think we have to forgive people who are wicked and never repent. Some may disagree. I see the bible as saying "no revenge" and departing, but I am not going to do brain gymnastics and lie to myself manufacturing warm fuzzy feelings for my abusers who never thought they did one thing wrong. Many churches have done a number on people's mind, putting the "forgive" thing way above telling the wicked to shape up and to repent.
Anyhow I don't believe one can lie to God. I could fake and pretend the fuzzy wuzzy feelings and embrace all my abusers saying "I'm sorry". They still want me back in line and there would just be more abuse again.
With these people who discredit our feelings and experiences, I know I'm working on not caring about being acceptable to them but with the one it's interesting how so many ACONS are mean 'bigots' 'haters' etc etc and she's over on a proud to be a psychopaths blog cheering them on. That tells us all we want to know about her.
And no one can lie to God that's just it. Or do brain gymnastics, I have never gotten good at. With my FOO I was so hated for never being able to let things go, or let it pour off me like a duck's back. I was called too sensitive. That one still gets to me, and I can't seem to get my way around it. Then starts the second guessing myself.
Anna V. talks very effectively in her blog that when these things come along, like the false thing that the churches do, it will fall on the victims. And that's just cowardice, for they will pick on the victim to defend the narc. I remember being told I had to forgive, being demanded of me, and I would say ok, then it would make them all happy. As long as I said ok, they were happy, and they didn't care about what I really was thinking, they got what they wanted. For me to bend over and take it. Same thing. You don't have to like bending over and taking it, that is not the point, the point is they love to see you take it.
I agree, there's no lying to God. You aren't going to hide emotions and true feelings successfully. These types seem to want us all to put on an act. Go along to get along and it gives the wicked a pass to keep being as nasty as possible while their victims keep false smiles plastered on their faces.
My Foo told me to let things go. All the time. The N sister would always say "Mom did nothing wrong" and would hold to her line no matter what. I heard it even a few months ago from brother. He repeated "That's just the way they are" and told me I needed to "accept it". Its unacceptable to me. Anyhow the abuse continued to the last minute I walked away and would be repeated if I was dumb enough to ever go back.
I was hated for having emotions and feelings. I know I rebelled against my low status and refused to be the worm and oh they hated that from very early on. People who tell me I am too sensitive, are people I have had to avoid like the plague. I don't want to be pod people like them so screw them.
They'd slap me around trying to harden me up getting mad whenever I show empathy or sensitivity even as a child.
I agree it falls on the victims. No doubt of that. The victims will be told they are responsible for everything including the feelings of their abusers and that's sick. It's like we all have to tip toe through the tulips for them while they do and say whatever they want to anyone.
All those narc defender blogs, never call the narcs out, and say shape up or ship out, but tell the victims, "Oh you are too sensitive and negative!" The churches aren't much better, church has become more of a show off land in many instances, a place to parade trophy children and families and popularity. Many of the evangelical churches especially have grown so totalitarian in outlook and authoritarian, it's all about women and children submitting, and no addressing any abusive men or husbands or abusive parents. They all defend the status quo and power of our broken evil society.
There it falls on the victims too, they are told be nicer, forgive, be more submissive from those in the pulpit and all they get then is abused again.
I agree I did the same thing and would apologize and go back. I would say sorry, they never apologized to me EVER in my entire life and get back in line only to get kicked in the face again. I am sure now they are whining about how I 'hold grudges' and am "unforgiving" especially with three years in now but they never cared about being forgiven and really don't want our forgiveness, they want our submission, a point that people need to remember. There's a reason mine send cards and fake invitations, with the message, "it's time to shut up, stop rebelling and get back in line.". The NM is such a sociopathic narc, she lies in wait, almost and STILL is which creeps me out.
I had to play the part too worrying about their happiness while none cared about mine. It was bending over and taking it and saying "Sir may I have another?" Well forget that. I think they love keeping people in this position. I am sometimes very angry I didn't fight back early and walk away for good much earlier on. I have asked myself questions, "Why did I take so much from people?"
I have tried to forgive myself for this, knowing I was so sick so young and still had dreams of a "family".
They love to abuse people and got pleasure off pounding us down into the ground.
I know how this goes. "All you do is care about how you feel, and your always whining anyway, no one wants to listen to it. You'll have to be a lot tougher than that." I remember those words from my own mother. That is a massive invalidation, a pure invasion of boundaries, I knew from a young age it did not make sense. It also shows she did not know the first thing about anyone else's feelings, that she was punishing me for having feelings.
Funny how she said, too, that I had to toughen up. That's so I could be more callous and take more abuse.
Yeah the whole feeling's invalidation. I was always told I was "crazy" and "too sensitive" and gaslighted and told things happening right in front of my face weren't happening. It is a massive invalidation. The narcs I dealt with being actual sociopaths with no feelings, sure had no understanding of one iota of real emotion and wanted it shut down at all cost. I was punished for having feelings too. Remember they kill their consciences early on destroying all their emotions, remember those videos smakintosh did where he spoke of their inner life being an utter wasteland where all the water got dried up. Yes they wanted us to be tough punching bags.
I agree that churches put the "forgive" thing way above telling the wicked to repent. It's horrible.They often act like that is the only thing Jesus said. But I also think society does the same ;telling victims to forgive and giving abusers a pass. I see it everywhere.
Yes they act like that's the only thing Jesus said, and forget the verses where Jesus called the Pharisees "VIPERS" I guess Jesus would be told He is being negative and not being nice enough now, with some of these people. Yes everywhere we see abusers being defended. Just remember some of these peoples values in life are about power and control, so wonder they praise and support self-avowed sociopaths. I realize if I had gone evil and won in this world, I wouldn't be a scapegoat. We are dealing with some deep spiritual realities here.
Yes good observation. These are deep spiritual realities. Truth telling is deeply spiritual. I don't think most people even Christians; see this.It was a huge narrative of Jesus and the prophets.I also think Jesus was a lot easier going on the poor or the sick than the powerful who abused people.
Thanks. I think a lot of Christians are being deceived on many fronts, well people in general. Jesus always focused on truth telling and would not want people lying and wearing false masks. He also didn't teach bowing and scraping before the powerful either as much as some of these churches seem to say.
They don't want or need your forgiveness. You can't forgive people who think they have done nothing wrong.
ReplyDeleteSorry peep I just regurgitated what you said in your post.
ReplyDeleteThat's pkay...helps me to remember what was said. LOL
DeleteQ, if people didn't repeat things, I'd be screwed. And I need to remember this stuff too.
DeleteForgiveness was never on the menu for me. I never thought of it until I found AC Blogs and saw all the "discussions" about the necessity to "forgive" and "you forgive for yourself!"<And BTW, what the hell does that even MEAN? It was as if I had run into a bunch of bobble heads nodding their heads up and down, "yep, yep, yep..."
ReplyDeleteWarning: Rant Ahead. (Not directed at you, Peep; it's a general "you")
YK, sometimes I wonder: Is this just another line on a check off list you need to complete for being "good enough" to just be who you are? Do you even think-deeply-about these concepts? Do you ever really "listen" to the inane shit you write? Do you even understand what "checking off the boxes" means? Do you understand how offensive it is when you insist everyone think in lockstep with YOU? Do you have a clue when you're shaking your proverbial finger an inch away from some one's face you're doing the same damn thing as your EP-using a shaming tactic? That unsolicited advice isn't advice, it's another way of telling someone their way of doing, thinking, feeling, hell even existing is "less than" or less valuable than your's?
It seems to me this very black and white, all or nothing thinking is a huge flea for ACs. CB Parents demonstrate this polarity all the time: This rigidity and insistence life is lived only in polarities, good/bad, right/wrong etc. reflects such a paucity of human experience, maturity and understanding that most of life is lived in the grey areas between the two, not exclusively IN those polarities. For example, EParents consistently report their estranged AC "hates" them. HUH? The AC NEVER SAID THAT! It just doesn't occur to them there are almost endless mental/emotional/ psychological states between love and hate for example. What an impoverished view of the human experience. Or maybe it's some Projection on their part as well, who knows.
Since I've managed to not "forgive" for decades and still haven't been struck by lightening, spontaneously combusted or otherwise been "run over by the Karma Bus" (what ever the hell that is) or become some "bitter, angry" etc. old broad I'm just delivering a message from the "Dark Side." ;-)
No, you do not have to "forgive." Would you forgive a bear for being a bear? Your dog or cat for being a dog or a cat? Of course not! That's just who.they.are. If you can understand this reasoning, you can understand the conclusion: Genuine Acceptance rather than ostentatious self-indulged self-centered "Forgiveness" a la "Looka me! See how HUMBLE/Holey/Righteous I am!" (Oh BS) is a hella more honest.
This crap just makes me feel like I just wanna quietly get your attention to tell you your skirt is stuck in your pantyhose in the back which kind of detracts from your belief in your mein of gravitas.
So if ya haven't "forgiven," don't worry about it. Despite the dire warnings, you're still as good, as human, as real as anyone else. And maybe living your life in the grey areas with all the sloppy, messy, joyful, sad, funny etc. places that reflects genuine honesty and a wealth of human experiences rather than superficial compliance with someone else's "acceptability check list."
TW
How do you forgive people who don't want your forgiveness and don't think they ever have done anything wrong? It's impossible and as I wrote on the other article linked above, I went down forgiveness highway only to be get burned double.
DeleteI remember trying to force my feelings into the forgiveness box. Is forgiveness even real when done under duress or under societal pressure. I know I get tired of the fake forgiveness pushed out there, as if we are supposed to shut off our brains and becoming smiling pod people, it enables the evil. They know they will be "forgiven" for no matter what they do.
Oh definitely it's another line on the check off oppression list, along with the "be rich" mandates and have a "perfect body", enemies aren't allowed, you are supposed to be palsy walsy with everyone no matter what they did to you.
The certain blog writings "just forgive" and do false smiles are full of it. One primary one, she is hanging out on and supporting blogs where people are proud of being psychopaths that one and her so called "advice".
So many ACONS got abused by the forgive or else people. They are your parents you have to forgive. What I remember is nobody told them to shape up, everyone told me it was my responsibility to "forgive" and take more abuse.
I agree the grey areas are ignored by far too many. With narcs they do that polarity thing far too well.
I don't think we have to forgive people who are wicked and never repent. Some may disagree. I see the bible as saying "no revenge" and departing, but I am not going to do brain gymnastics and lie to myself manufacturing warm fuzzy feelings for my abusers who never thought they did one thing wrong. Many churches have done a number on people's mind, putting the "forgive" thing way above telling the wicked to shape up and to repent.
Anyhow I don't believe one can lie to God. I could fake and pretend the fuzzy wuzzy feelings and embrace all my abusers saying "I'm sorry". They still want me back in line and there would just be more abuse again.
With these people who discredit our feelings and experiences, I know I'm working on not caring about being acceptable to them but with the one it's interesting how so many ACONS are mean 'bigots' 'haters' etc etc and she's over on a proud to be a psychopaths blog cheering them on. That tells us all we want to know about her.
And no one can lie to God that's just it. Or do brain gymnastics, I have never gotten good at. With my FOO I was so hated for never being able to let things go, or let it pour off me like a duck's back. I was called too sensitive. That one still gets to me, and I can't seem to get my way around it. Then starts the second guessing myself.
DeleteAnna V. talks very effectively in her blog that when these things come along, like the false thing that the churches do, it will fall on the victims. And that's just cowardice, for they will pick on the victim to defend the narc. I remember being told I had to forgive, being demanded of me, and I would say ok, then it would make them all happy. As long as I said ok, they were happy, and they didn't care about what I really was thinking, they got what they wanted. For me to bend over and take it. Same thing. You don't have to like bending over and taking it, that is not the point, the point is they love to see you take it.
I agree, there's no lying to God. You aren't going to hide emotions and true feelings successfully. These types seem to want us all to put on an act. Go along to get along and it gives the wicked a pass to keep being as nasty as possible while their victims keep false smiles plastered on their faces.
DeleteMy Foo told me to let things go. All the time. The N sister would always say "Mom did nothing wrong" and would hold to her line no matter what. I heard it even a few months ago from brother. He repeated "That's just the way they are" and told me I needed to "accept it". Its unacceptable to me. Anyhow the abuse continued to the last minute I walked away and would be repeated if I was dumb enough to ever go back.
I was hated for having emotions and feelings. I know I rebelled against my low status and refused to be the worm and oh they hated that from very early on. People who tell me I am too sensitive, are people I have had to avoid like the plague. I don't want to be pod people like them so screw them.
They'd slap me around trying to harden me up getting mad whenever I show empathy or sensitivity even as a child.
I agree it falls on the victims. No doubt of that. The victims will be told they are responsible for everything including the feelings of their abusers and that's sick. It's like we all have to tip toe through the tulips for them while they do and say whatever they want to anyone.
All those narc defender blogs, never call the narcs out, and say shape up or ship out, but tell the victims, "Oh you are too sensitive and negative!" The churches aren't much better, church has become more of a show off land in many instances, a place to parade trophy children and families and popularity. Many of the evangelical churches especially have grown so totalitarian in outlook and authoritarian, it's all about women and children submitting, and no addressing any abusive men or husbands or abusive parents. They all defend the status quo and power of our broken evil society.
There it falls on the victims too, they are told be nicer, forgive, be more submissive from those in the pulpit and all they get then is abused again.
I agree I did the same thing and would apologize and go back. I would say sorry, they never apologized to me EVER in my entire life and get back in line only to get kicked in the face again. I am sure now they are whining about how I 'hold grudges' and am "unforgiving" especially with three years in now but they never cared about being forgiven and really don't want our forgiveness, they want our submission, a point that people need to remember. There's a reason mine send cards and fake invitations, with the message, "it's time to shut up, stop rebelling and get back in line.". The NM is such a sociopathic narc, she lies in wait, almost and STILL is which creeps me out.
I had to play the part too worrying about their happiness while none cared about mine. It was bending over and taking it and saying "Sir may I have another?" Well forget that. I think they love keeping people in this position. I am sometimes very angry I didn't fight back early and walk away for good much earlier on. I have asked myself questions, "Why did I take so much from people?"
I have tried to forgive myself for this, knowing I was so sick so young and still had dreams of a "family".
They love to abuse people and got pleasure off pounding us down into the ground.
I know how this goes. "All you do is care about how you feel, and your always whining anyway, no one wants to listen to it. You'll have to be a lot tougher than that." I remember those words from my own mother. That is a massive invalidation, a pure invasion of boundaries, I knew from a young age it did not make sense. It also shows she did not know the first thing about anyone else's feelings, that she was punishing me for having feelings.
DeleteFunny how she said, too, that I had to toughen up. That's so I could be more callous and take more abuse.
Yeah the whole feeling's invalidation. I was always told I was "crazy" and "too sensitive" and gaslighted and told things happening right in front of my face weren't happening. It is a massive invalidation. The narcs I dealt with being actual sociopaths with no feelings, sure had no understanding of one iota of real emotion and wanted it shut down at all cost. I was punished for having feelings too. Remember they kill their consciences early on destroying all their emotions, remember those videos smakintosh did where he spoke of their inner life being an utter wasteland where all the water got dried up. Yes they wanted us to be tough punching bags.
DeleteI agree that churches put the "forgive" thing way above telling the wicked to repent. It's horrible.They often act like that is the only thing Jesus said.
ReplyDeleteBut I also think society does the same ;telling victims to forgive and giving abusers a pass. I see it everywhere.
Yes they act like that's the only thing Jesus said, and forget the verses where Jesus called the Pharisees "VIPERS" I guess Jesus would be told He is being negative and not being nice enough now, with some of these people. Yes everywhere we see abusers being defended. Just remember some of these peoples values in life are about power and control, so wonder they praise and support self-avowed sociopaths. I realize if I had gone evil and won in this world, I wouldn't be a scapegoat. We are dealing with some deep spiritual realities here.
DeleteYes good observation. These are deep spiritual realities. Truth telling is deeply spiritual. I don't think most people even Christians; see this.It was a huge narrative of Jesus and the prophets.I also think Jesus was a lot easier going on the poor or the sick than the powerful who abused people.
ReplyDeleteThanks. I think a lot of Christians are being deceived on many fronts, well people in general. Jesus always focused on truth telling and would not want people lying and wearing false masks. He also didn't teach bowing and scraping before the powerful either as much as some of these churches seem to say.
Delete