Yeah I know some of you are asking, "How come Peep is getting rid of everyone?" Yes sometimes I get scared. This is a lot of people, I have walked away from. They all held two things in common, they treated me like my mother and family and they all looked down on me.
I have examined myself, that I was far too compliant, too weak, too accepting of bad behavior for too long. Why on earth did I end up with all these friends who even socioeconomically looked down on me from the clouds while I was in the basement?
All I can say is that my upbringing definitely hurt my ability to choose the right kind of people. I also have had the crappiest luck. Some kind and decent friends died, and I moved away from other good people who weren't like this or lost touch. Yeah I know for the last ten years I have mourned moving from my old town. Even people left here, I miss like the art center folks and the people who ran my self help group. Online I do have great friends of course too. I have lost too many people. It has affected the faith crisis too. Finding out one of your "best friends" doesn't care about you either, can be hell on earth.
I found myself getting creeped out when this friend started reminding me more of my mother. You know the other abusers are out of my life, so you are looking at others, and things are reminding you. You get the big gun narcissists out of your life, and then you see the smaller gun ones, but who can just be as damaging. Sometimes when she spoke it would trigger me back to my mother. The coldness, the lack of emotion, the imperviousness about life and lack of fear, also stood out to me. She even would say odd things to me, when I spoke of vulnerability in life, "I know I will live as long as my grandparents did into their 90s."
Here's the weirdest thing for FIVE YEARS, I asked her to read my blog. She has computers, smart phones and full access to the internet, and she refused to come over here. What was that deal? I thought okay maybe she got busy, or distracted and one day recently I suggested it again, told her the name and everything, and she comes over here.... and the reaction is horrific... She hates this blog! Oh it's not the fat articles, she understands my metabolism and Lipedema, it's the ACON ones. She insulted it. It's the reaction like the relatives.
Basically the attitude is how dare you say you say you are abused and she tells me all my perceptions are wrong. Now this really floors me. Why? She SAW some of the verbal abuse. My mother used to call her a lesbian. Read the story of my first going no contact, she was there, and they insulted her too.
Where we ever really friends? She wrote this to me and invalidated my entire blog and me with this statement: "I will likely never know what financial challenges are, so I can’t put myself in your position, in reality nobody has had exactly the same life experiences, even children growing up in the same house will remember things differently. Everything that parents do while raising a child can be defined as abuse. Just because my mother had a temper and there was lots of arguing doesn’t mean I was verbally abused."
I got the "you need to let go". speeches too. What gets me, is she could see on this blog, my writing about them had diminished. Time alone has shrunk any talking about them. I don't know what is going on. Outside the weird house crap in the last year and resultant email, I am out of the loop. What gets me is I was supportive to her, when she talked about how her own mother engulfed her, and then went into dementia, but I guess when it comes to my problems, there is no equal billing.
She wrote me, "I have nothing to apologize for. I had a conversation about two houses, one that I actually went and looked at. As of now, that is all I have done. It has actually helped make some progress in getting my house organized; because when/if I do move this house will be packed ujp to be shown and a fair amount of maintenance work done before being listed. In my discussions with **** on this issue, she was in or above my position once and had friends in yours or similar to yours. At no time did they have a falling out, these people, some of whom I've met were always happy for her good fortune."
During our email fight, as she just came back with very cold narcissistic answers and talked down to me like an uncaring social worker, I decided I was done. I ended the friendship. I am sure I will be deemed the "jealous" loser. At one point she even blamed me for my husband's career problems. Like I chose any of that?
What is creepy is I didn't even talk about my family that much with her especially in the last few years. In the last year, they are ebbing away fast in my mind so it was even far less. I got the feeling it "bothered" her so I kept my mouth shut. Her family left her 2-4 million dollars, so maybe she's got a little more love for hers but what I noticed was empathy missing. When we met in college she was already 6 figures wealthy with money left direct to her from an uncle, but got more inheritances later in life, including the final in 2011 when her mother died. While I worked at the various jobs, she went through college in ease. She didn't have have to hold a job during graduate school when we both shared an apartment.
The very few times I brought my family up, she was defending them. It started weirding me out. I told her, "I think my mother got the house foreclosed on," It never went on the market after that one email. And she piped up basically saying "Oh your mother is still financially viable". It was weird stuff like that. She was against my adoption search, and to her, I did admit, I could have a genetic tie to ANOTHER relative, so why the anger, why the lack of support? Her and the Army friend exactly matched on these stances. These things all weighed on me for years.
In fact one reason things lasted as long as they did is because she came out to visit me, unlike the family. She would come out twice a year and spend a couple days with me. I really thought this was because she cared about me. You know letting actions speaking for themselves. I discussed coming out her way but she said, "That wouldn't work, there's no place for you to sleep." The logistics for me would have been very difficult. I put up with a lot thinking, "Well she cares enough to come visit a couple times a year" and thinking this way, I would set some increasing worries aside.
Sometimes when one is on the lonely end of life, and doesn't have very many real world friends they see, you can get stuck in the mode of thinking, "Well I am not going to challenge this friend, I got so few friends right now". ACON recovery changed that about me. I started being more aware of things. It brought a lot into question. I plan to write about this more later, but I realized from a Facebook group, even normal, thin, healthy and not clinically depressed women, are having problems making, keeping and finding close friends.
We did have an intellectual compatibility. I made the error here too of mistaking her shyness and remove from other people for being a possible fellow Aspie. She never was diagnosed and rejected the label herself but I could talk to her about art, and politics and other subjects other people did not get.
We could have fun touring museums, going to restaurants, and watching movies, though I noticed more and more we could talk about everything in her life, but many subjects on my end, were "unacceptable". I enjoyed time with her and focused on the positive, I liked going to the places we did and many of our activities. We had a long history together. Maybe that is limited in keeping a friendship going too as people can change with time. We roomed together for two years in college, and then had an apartment together while I was working at the juvenile home and she was in graduate school.
There was problems though even years ago. A lot of times she did hurt me. One time she visited with this other mutual college friend who was a bridesmaid in my wedding too, and they kept making fun of me together and ganging up on me. I stopped having that mutual college friend visit me, but that remained inside my mind. I thought of the treatment when we were living together and she got with a young man, I had noted interest in first. I had missed a bullet and a half as he moved in with her while cheating on her, and would go on to meet my husband a few years later but that first betrayal was there. In 1995, she had come to visit me in Chicago, and she was horrified by my poverty, and she something like "Why don't you have a trash can in your bathroom?" it was something stupid, and thoughtless, and we got in a giant argument, and I made her get out of my car dropping her off near the bus station and we would not talk for more then a year and half. So trouble was brewing even years ago. No relationship is perfect, but even then as I look back on our history, I realized she looked down on me and had little respect.
Religiously she had introduced me to the UU when I left my family's church. She grew up in it but later left it. She did not like it when I became a Christian and sometimes would make joking references to God being "my invisible best friend". I never told her of the recent faith problems because I didn't want to be told, "I told you so.
However especially in the last few years I felt everything was not safe to talk about there were also other issues as you will see. The conversations from my end felt more strained. She would happily chat about her friends, and life, and I was interested but she took very little interest in mine. I know I changed with time too. She would tell me at times she was lonely and I told her, I faced loneliness as well, and sometimes it seemed to me we were connecting then but maybe not given what happened later. I sought more closeness with her, since the friendship had survived for so long but in many ways she just kept slamming the door in my face and that reminded me of my mother and other relatives too.
One thing affecting the visits, is as I aged, my health has declined, the shopping got more restricted, I couldn't go to as many stores without facing serious fatigue. Our visits were planned during non-housebound times, but I was slowing down.
Recently during our last conversation, she noted irritation even with someone else she knew for talking about abuse as a child and adult and their resultant depression. This gave me immediate flashbacks to how my mother would talk to people, anyone relaying troubles was a problem. Sometimes I feel like warning this person, but I've been down that road long enough to know I could be buying trouble and would not be believed. One statement in an email deeply troubled me where she wrote that an ACON threatening suicide on a message board only wanted "attention". Here we see out and out disdain and lack of empathy for abuse victims. When she came out against so ardently against ACONs, that crossed a line. She must have found me on an ACON message board I go to, googling the term "fivehundredpoundpeep". I used to post the same things on there I do here, sometimes trying out topics before blogging on them. She wrote me this:
"Let’s discuss that whole narcissist concept/diagnosis. Just because you spend a lot of time on that board, doesn’t make you an expert on the topic. And from my perspective, you seem to have become one yourself, having to be right about everything and be the center of attention; accusing me pf being loyal to people I have had no contact with in more than 2 decades. **********has a friend who is on your ACON board and has been threatening suicide for the last 6 months just to get attention from anyone who will listen. Message boards are a good outlet, but they are not a sole form of therapy that makes anyone into an expert on any topic."
Anyhow, during my recovery process, and I am finally moving into the "What Next?" phase, and trying to figure out what to do with my life free of abusive people, she did not offer me much support. She was always defensive of my family to the point, I limited bringing them up even during the more painful early NC days. Around here now, I tell people I have no family and infer except for my husband that they are all dead. It is easier that way. Some online FB friends and others who read this blog know the true story but for new people who are local, it is something I want to shut the door on. There was one point where I even said to her straight on, on the phone, "You knew I was abused why do you keep defending my mother?" "Don't you even remember how she treated you?"
Remember the Army friend, the one who hoovered me? Millionaire now ex-Friend and Army ex-Friend went to the same high school together. Millionaire friend introduced me to Army friend. We had mutual visits with each other for years. The Army friend comes from a multi-million dollar family too. When her parents die, she will be as wealthy as the other friend too if not more.Both of them grew up in one of the wealthiest suburbs in my state.
Yes I know it's weird that poor me ended up with such wealthy friends from a state college but remember my family had money too though my immediate family was more in the 6 figure range and outer relatives were more wealthy like them.
What is strange is remember when I talked about looking up things and trying to get the truth, I looked up my Army friend and found out she lied to me for (30 years!) about where her father worked. He worked for at a company that had massive multimillion dollar supply contacts with the US Army, and then I found out this company where he was vice president had major and multiple contacts with the specific branch, office and government agency my parents worked for. It kind of explains to me why she skyrocketed in promotions. Her father is retired now, but I found myself wondering, "Were my friends chosen for me?" I know this sounds VERY strange, and I wonder if it is just a coincidence and don't want to become a conspiracy theorist about my own life, but it bothered me greatly. Their defenses of my family grew so strident, and it made no sense even from their end. This is why I wondered about things even if I am wrong. The Army friend betrayed me in some serious ways. The other webs I had discovered my mother weaving certainly were vast enough.
Both friends seemed to act like they still had contact with my family. They defended my family, they were AGAINST my going no contact, and they stood against my adoption search. This means these friendships were doomed at that conjecture. Yes all of these felt like betrayals, built up and then I knew I had to walk. With the Army friend, she hid the reality of one famous uncle from me, which was odd and told me one brother was a drinker, and poor when he was another uber- wealthy financier. The endless lies were exposed. I couldn't trust any of them anymore. Some of the direct treatment was enough to walk too.
The last fight with the millionaire friend began this way. She told me her 1200-1800 square foot house in a nice suburb was not big enough especially for her growing glass collection, and that she wanted to buy a house worth more then half a million with 4-5 bedrooms. I live in a poorer fly-over state so these houses would be around 3 million alone in California or maybe around 1 million in cost in Chicago. The houses she chose to look at ranged around the 5,000 square feet mark. I went online to look at her potential houses on Zillow. They were huge mansions.
When she raised this topic, I wanted to ignore this and dropped some major hints but she pressed on but she told me to look them up and I did. She has no children or partner and wants to live in one of these giant houses alone which creeped me out. I also did not fail to notice she selected houses with giant staircases even on the outside, I probably would not even be able to get inside due to disabilities if I ever was able to visit. The week she was telling me about her real estate plans, we were very low on groceries, and had no money. I was stressed out to the hilt. Our food co-op had encountered supply issues that week so even that source for groceries had been diminished. The last thing I was in the mood for was hearing about a woman who had been given everything in life bragging about her new real estate plans.
One thing, while she would get me used estate sale items such as some used Tupperware or some pots and pans, bought me health food store shampoo and gave me gift cards for my birthday, she was the type that did not like to mix money and friendship which is a boundary I adhered to. On my end I would make her paintings for gifts. I gave her one last Christmas.
I don't want to be begging to people myself. That's enough to bring on loads of shame. People have helped me unasked many times in life, but I am not the type to go begging and well, sometimes inside, I would wonder, "Why isn't she helping me?" especially when things got dire. Her real estate bragging and my personal circumstances that week did not mesh. Some of you may even be in shock reading this entry, if you are a long-time reader of this blog, to realize Peep had two millionaire "friends" from college during all the severe poverty.
It did get painful during her visits while she paid for the very rare lunch maybe once every 6 visits, she could easily drop 500 dollars in front of me buying jewelry and house items , at the various local antique shops we went to. From my end, I had saved very carefully around 40 dollars to go out to lunch, and to have entry fees to the museums or art center for the few days she was here. I could not afford any jewelry or antiques. It got depressing. I never recovered in some ways from the lost of my husband's career and that move 10 years ago. Sometimes I still want to double over in grief where my life has ended up. No one seems to care about the pain supposedly "its all my fault". Now I know hanging out with Lenora Helmsley was a bit extreme and hard on my pysche.
I never feel like I could depend on her in a pinch, or that she was really there for me. Does that make sense? One doesn't want to mix friendship and money but I started wondering how she could watch me flounder even with the groceries with no help. I had too much pride to ask direct but she knew what was going on. We got money that week, and chances are I never would have had to ask, because my husband got another new transcription job, that paid a bit more but it got to me.
Maybe a friendship with such vast socioeconomic differences is doomed to failure anyway. She never even attempted to understand my life or even how I lived. It triggered me too, as my blog readers here know, my self esteem has taken a battering because of my better off family that put me down for poverty and it's not easy living in an upper middle class area I have stayed in for better medical and other resources. All these issues mixed together.
I realized with horror, she did look down on me and it wasn't going to get better. Chances were, I was not going to win a big money Lotto to be an equal. Someone on here commented once, that the only friendships that truly work out are ones of equals. I believe people of different socioeconomic groups can be friends, I have even had homeless friends myself, and known friends in the six figure category, but there, the people have to see themselves as equal human beings, not with one seeing themselves as superior and the other as an underling.
She treated me like a burden, like she could see sitting on her stoop one day. Her mother by the way 20 years ago told her to dump me as a friend because I was "too poor". A few years ago, she told me once if I ever became homeless she would never take me in. I don't even remember how the topic came up. I know my feelings about her changed. She knew I'd always move into a disabled apartment first as an adult before living under someone else's domain, but that bothered me. My mother held that same attitude. They looked at me like I didn't deserve anything.
Some months earlier she had let the bomb drop, that she spent more then I live on every year on accupuncture alone, at her local holistic health clinic. That kind of floored me. She gets other treatments too, so this told me how vast things were between us. It bothered me.
She has the right to spend her money on whatever she wants, and to live her own life, but I knew a rupture in values was occurring. I started seeing her as very materialistic and self absorbed. Not all rich people live that way either. It drove me crazy instead that even with just 1/10th of her money the goals, dreams and opportunities I would have far more access too. I got angry about the lack of imagination. Maybe this was judgmental on my part but she was always focused on STUFF. I remember odd conversations with her, where I would ask her, "How come you don't travel?" "Why not explore that avenue of life?" I wondered why she had no greater yearnings. I hope this makes sense.I had bad thoughts that she was just like my mother, where stuff meant everything to her and that she had become shallow. One day on the phone, I got angry and asked "Where is your imagination?" And why on earth do you just want to buy a giant mausoleum and fill it up with stuff?"
It is sad to end a 30 year old friendship and now I have ended two of them. The main reason I ended it was her lack of empathy. I also realized with horror she had no emotional investment in me. Why did she even visit me? I can't spend my life being around people who see me as inferior to them. My ACON recovery has changed what I will put up with in people, and I know my ice queen mother led me to far too many ice queen friends. One day watching the show Hoarders, I saw this woman who even had serious problems, being hugged and shown love by a friend. It made me burst out in tears seeing that. My friend didn't even care enough to get upset enough over the demise of a 30 year friendship.
I do think when psychologists warn abused people they will re-enact the abuse in other relationships this is true. Like my mother, she took no interest in who I was. I was a reflection for her. Reading my blog, would have meant seeing me as an actual individual, so that is why she refused for some many years.
When I did end the friendship, it did hurt, that she never broke out of social worker mode and never showed one emotion about it. She never attempted to apologize or to patch things up. I told her in my last letter if she had, and showed any care for me, that would have stopped me ending the friendship in my tracks.
Here is what I wrote:
"I can tell from the tone of these letters your emotional
investment in me is very little. You don't want to be close and do not
see me as a person of any worth. You defend my abusers and use cold
social worker language on me instead of the responses one would expect a
friend of 30 years to make. Maybe my expectations were too high and
you just saw me as an activity buddy. Our expectations of friendships
do not match. Right now I know I can't even talk to you about anything
deep and meaningful anymore because I am judged as "not letting go" and
being "too emotional" and always the one in the "wrong". Because you
are treating me the same as my family did as a person of no worth and
someone you do not love or care about, I am walking away for good. I
doubt you will feel much pain over this as I will,but I made the
decision, that I would give you one last chance to give me in these
emails ONE KIND WORD or degree of sympathy and empathy, before I walked
away and you failed and failed miserably."
Sounds like you hit a nerve. That plausible deniability thing is how my mother carried on for so long. I would tell people about what she was like and after a while it sounded like a page out the warren commission report. They would start out with the you think she seduced this guy to do that and that guy to do this and they would look at me like I was the crazy one. We never put all our cards on the table like that but when I talked to people who knew her they would look at me like I was the one with no credibility. I would finally say I don't know how she does it but after she shows up everything go's to hell in a hand basket. The bitch is still dead and she has done to us all she can do. So I don't have to look over my shoulder anymore. I don't like to be where I am not wanted and have friends who don't like me. If that means it's me against the world so be it.
ReplyDeleteYeah I hit a nerve. In her case, her mother was an abuser too though not on the severe end and she looked out for didn't she? Yeah I know it sounds like a page out of the warren Commission report. Those who never have experienced won't even know what it was like. The family is dead, gone and buried as far as any new people are concerned. I refuse to taint any new relationships or friendships with their dirty ghosts. It's easy to pull off since I am old and I live far away enough from all parties. Yeah people will look at us like we are the crazy ones. Yeah they can taint relationships even after they dead. I haven't talked to the witch in 4 years, and now I am out a friend who decided to take up for her side. One reason I never brought the subject up or rarely was fearing inside she would choose their side, does that makes sense. :( I don't want to be where I am not wanted and I have no problem having gotten rid of all the friends that don't like me too. She talked about her migraines for 20 years, a rare mention of having to walk away my family shouldn't have fazed her. It's funny how I am supposed to constantly censor myself for them all too. At this rate go ahead and hate me. I'm tired of trying to be whoever everyone wants me to be. Damn tired. Nothing is ever good enough anyhow for them.
DeleteThis right here especially hits home. People wonder why I hold my sister in such high regard and it's because neither of us do this to each other.
ReplyDeleteMaybe my expectations were too high and you just saw me as an activity buddy. Our expectations of friendships do not match. Right now I know I can't even talk to you about anything deep and meaningful anymore because I am judged as "not letting go" and being "too emotional" and always the one in the "wrong". Because you are treating me the same as my family did as a person of no worth and someone you do not love or care about, I am walking away for good. I doubt you will feel much pain over this as I will,but I made the decision, that I would give you one last chance to give me in these emails ONE KIND WORD or degree of sympathy and empathy, before I walked away and you failed and failed miserably."
Thank you Q, Your sister is to be held in high regard.
DeleteOne reason this friendship is over, is even in the EARLY days of no contact, she was not there for me. I held that close to the vest. I was scared of being judged and BOY WAS I. She was against the going no contact once I did mention it, same as the other one who told me I would be "all alone".
Maybe you should take some of what she said to heart. Even if your mother was a monster, you have to figure out a way to move past it. It would try the patience of the best of friends to listen to somebody rehash the events of 20+ years ago over and over and over again. At some point you have to say, "my childhood may not have been perfect, but its over."
ReplyDeleteI rarely discussed the family with her, or a lot of what I was going through. During the visits,I focused them on fun activities so I wasn't sitting around crying to her. In the early years of no contact, the pain was immense, but she wasn't the type to understand anyhow and I kept my mouth shut. I heard about her migraines and other problems for 20 years but never tried to tell her what to talk about or not talk about. I don't care if a friend talks to me about their problems even if they are years in duration, is something I don't get that I am supposed to be a censor for my other friend's feelings? Once a friend is trying to censor another friend, the friendship is dead in the dirt already.
DeleteAnyhow it wasn't my childhood, the problems were up to age 44. I am talking far less about the childhood and since the narcs are gone, expect the personal based ACON articles to drop in number, they already have. Anyhow "move on" queens who battered at me to SHUT UP ALREADY actually made it far worse on me. I always wanted to say to one of you, "Move on to what?" Move on advice never helped me draw boundaries or process emotions.
I am trying to get what happiness I can out of everyday and right now that means lot of art, hanging out on beach, with husband which I did today and watching movies, and cutting every last narcissist out of my life.
I know the narcs of this society want all emotions censored, all pain erased so they never have to take responsibility about anything.
Anonymous I am sure you mean, well but it's hard to relate to if you haven't lived it. If we could be like an accountant and draw a line under it and then move forward I think we would. But coming from a family like that is ours is like seeing some dry rot at the bottom of your window sills and so you go to the hard ware store and buy lumber and nails and go to work on it. But as you remove the wood you keep finding the wood around it is rotten and the wood around that is rotten and the harder you try to get to the end of it the more rot there is until you find yourself replacing everything from the ground up and it costing you astronomically more time and money than you ever thought it would. When I went no contact I found that my mom had given all my friends a whiff of the money she had by selling the family farm so they showed their loyalty to the almighty dollar rather than to a guy that had helped them move dozens of time and lent them cash for decades. So instead of separating the wheat from the chafe, I found it easier to trust no one. Not because it was my nature but it saved time and no one will ever take me for a ride ever again.
ReplyDeleteThank you Q. Don't people who give us the "move on" speeches, realize inside, we want to wake up and no longer remember, that we want to be done, and have that grand and glorious life, they all promise us via this strange insistence that we shut down all our emotions, smack a smile on our face and forget? Wow with the house analogy, that is a great description, yeah we start removing the rot and realized the entire walls are rotten this is how we figure out even a friend in college was JUST like our mother because we had been 'trained" back then and even as we grew older and demanded a bit more respect it never was there. I feel like I've had to bulldoze the whole damn house, and I am working on a wheezing old tractor that runs out of gas. LOLOL I believe you about the friends, too many people catch a whiff of cash, and they sell out, it's terrible they treated you that way. Some of us have had lives, where trust often is an unaffordable luxury reserved for very few if any.
DeletePeep, I am so glad that you have kicked this TURBO NARC to the curb. The PD's callousness is so often revealed in their writing, and “the lady in blue” screams narcissist.
ReplyDelete"I will likely never know what financial challenges are, so I can’t put myself in your position."
Translation: I am a narcissist. I don’t feel empathy, so I can’t put myself in your position (the very definition of lack of empathy). They give themselves away. She’s also saying; I am superior so why do you expect me to act a certain way? I am perfect just the way I am. There’s something wrong with YOU for expecting compassion from someone as special as me.
"Just because my mother had a temper and there was lots of arguing doesn’t mean I was verbally abused."
Translation: I am a narcissist. I don’t feel empathy and I don’t feel like giving you any positive regard – that would be beneath me. Don’t you know it’s all about meeeee?! My narcissism makes me dismissive and withholding and self-absorbed. My brain is crammed in my head upside down. That’s why I compare family arguments to mental cruelty, abandonment, deprivation, scapegoating, marginalizing, smear campaigns, ostracizing, shunning, physical abuse, bullying, degrading and humiliating treatment. You should just put up and shut up and act like it didn’t happen. You are making ME uncomfortable and it’s all about my comfort and my needs even while you lay dying by the side of the road.
Oops, sorry Peep. The last part I got wrong. It would never occur to the emotionally and morally stunted narcissist that you’ve had the above mentioned abuse inflicted on you. The narcissist simply doesn’t think about you long enough for that to occur to her. It’s all about the narcissist, not you! The narcissist’s petty inconveniences are always paramount, and in her eyes, your troubles are just “exaggerations.” Don’t you know that she is the only one who is allowed any consideration?? How dare you expect anything from her! You are attacking poor her for expecting even a crumb of understanding and support.
"I have nothing to apologize for.”
Hell that’s self-explanatory. The narcissist is NEVER wrong.
“these people, some of whom I’ve met were always happy for her good fortune.”
The narcissist would never be happy for your good fortune because they are maliciously envious, covetous, greedy, jealous and pathologically entitled – they would be seething. What a freakin’ double standard. This bitch thinks it’s beneath her to show her friend (you, Peep) an ounce of compassion, generosity and human regard for your misfortune, yet she feels entitled to expect “happiness” from others for her good fortune?
"... And from my perspective, you seem to have become one yourself, having to be right about everything and be the center of attention…”
Wow. That’s next level projection right there. It’s stunning that these narcissists have zero self-awareness. I wish more of them put stuff in writing because it illuminates their callous indifference, not to mention their distorted thinking patterns.
Anonymous wrote: “Maybe you should take some of what she said to heart. Even if your mother was a monster, you have to figure out a way to move past it. Blah blah blah blah blah"
The whole point of your article is lost on anon. Another narc, I suspect. No empathy and judging you from a position of above. No wonder they shroud themselves in secrecy under Anonymous. You don’t belong here. Shoo! This is a support blog for survivors of narcissistic abuse. It’s not a place for narcs to congregate.
Hope I didn’t over-step, Peep. I’m just sick of mealy mouthed perpetrators of abuse spying on ACON blogs and then coming out of the shadows to utter doublespeak.
I love what you wrote to your “frenemie.” Unfortunately, the freak is likely too detached from reality and humanity to give it a second thought, but she may plot revenge if it incites her narc rage.
Thank you Lisette. The callousness was shocking. My husband even said, she never even tried to ask you what was wrong or patch anything up and was so cold. Thank you for the translations. With this one...
Delete"I will likely never know what financial challenges are, so I can’t put myself in your position."
It floored me. Remember this woman supposedly has known me 30 years. She knew of the Chicago poverty and the slide in back here. She's seen the old rusty cars and what I wear and how I live first hand, so if she failed to understand "financial challenges" they were right in front of her face. She made the choice NOT to understand which is basically the decision of a narcissist. Yes you are right, that is the very definition of lack of empathy, when someone can't even imagine being in the place of someone else!
Yes this denotes superiority. It shocked me when I faced facts, she saw herself as so superior to me. She even gave me a psychology lecture in the last arguments via email, telling me because she majored in psychology she knows better then I do. Yes the message too, is there, "There is something wrong with you to expect compassion" and THAT alone was a flash back and a half to the behavior and words of my mother.
Yes she refused all positive regard. Actually with her mother,and her,they bickered day and night, I witnessed it, so it's interesting she's already rewriting history to act like everything was just peachy.
I think her diminishment too of me here is especially cruel. Her mother looked out for her. Her mother got medical care for her. She did not get hit or locked in rooms or smeared as an adult, or denied contact with cousins, or children of cousins, she has no nieces or nephews in this case. So in comparing apples to oranges, she massively invalidates me here. Ah you just had a "few arguments", I think any desire to stay friends with her at all collapsed at that statement. It meant I was not believed for what I told her and it heightened my suspicions about her and the other friend being connected to my family.
So when you write this..."That’s why I compare family arguments to mental cruelty, abandonment, deprivation, scapegoating, marginalizing, smear campaigns, ostracizing, shunning, physical abuse, bullying, degrading and humiliating treatment."
That sums it up.
She wants me to act like everything is just fine,and crawl back in my hole. Even 3 and 4 years ago when I mentioned once or twice I had gone no contact, she never supported any of it.
She would deny all the abuse, you are right. There's a reason she refused to read here for years. This blog was started 3 years even before I did one narcissist ACON article, it was started in 2010, she refused to read then too!
continuing..
DeleteYes all my troubles are just "exaggerations", to her. I am just "over-reacting". It still floors me how she takes up for my family here. This is unforgiveable because she was AROUND when I was 19, 20 and 21....she witnessed the abuse related to my sister's wedding--was there, and knew of my father constantly threatening me everyday. Either she's going senile or she is too obtuse and narcissistic to give a damn. Little did I know I had a snake in the grass right with me.
I agree she basically is saying how dare I expect anything from her. I never got a crumb of understanding or support that is for sure.
It occurred to me, she never has apologized to me in my life either. Never ever. That statement should not have surprised me. Queen Spider never has and didn't even fake an apology to get me back in line. I pointed this out in the last email too. They never admit they are wrong.
It sounds to me like she wants her butt kissed. Praise me for my "good fortune", like the world already doesn't kiss her butt enough so they can have a cut of her money? Like the holistic health center, where she probably pays someone's yearly salary to work there.
I agree about the projection. I would ask her what was wrong, but she never returned the favor. They do show themselves in writing so glaringly don't they?
Yeah I think another narc showed up, here with their "move on" speeches. Narcissists think they are superior in their freedom from emotions and lack of insight. Moving on is easy to them. They smile as they walk away from the destruction they made. They don't worry or feel regret or guilt. Yeah moving on is damn simple in those equations.
Thank you for your post Lisette. I don't regret what I wrote, it was a long time in coming.
Peep,
DeleteI understand what it’s like to do a major house cleaning and cut loose the last few dangling narcissists. It sucks to get such a rude awakening about people you have known for 30 years and face the fact that the relationship needs to be axed. When it comes to N friends, they are never healthy relationships to begin with, so I never regretted getting rid of a narc and I have never missed a narcissist. When they were gone, I felt relief and calm.
I think ACONs take longer to get rid of the riff raff because we are so used to putting up with bad behavior. We keep these assholes around well after their expiration dates. People raised in normal families notice something is “off” about the narcissist way before we ever could. After I saw the light, I felt like I was living in a post-apocalyptic state of mind and it took me a long time to even feel the desire to forge new relationships.
Yeah, I don’t know why people like Anonymous come to your blog. I mean, there you are opening-up about how a long term friend has disappointed and hurt you and what does Anonymous do? Offer you support? No. Anonymous parrots back to you almost the exact same thing the hurtful narcissist wrote. Is Anonymous oblivious, insensitive or looking for an opportunity to pour salt on your wound? I would say all three. Plus, Anonymous is trying to throw you on the defensive which makes Anonymous fee like a big shot. I hate that covert aggressive shit. It’s so transparent. Peep, you don’t need to explain to Anonymous or anyone else a damn thing about your decisions. ACON blogs are a place to offer and receive support. They are not a place for weirdos to inflict more pain and feed. And that’s exactly what “Anonymous” is trying to do. Pathetic.
I really like your paintings. The first one reminds me of a Kandinsky. Any chance the rich bitch will give them back? :)
Thanks Lisette, in understanding what it is like to do a major house cleaning. I have had a huge number of people I have had to walk away from. The severity of Queen Spider and pals showed up majorly in who I chose for friends especially years ago. I couldn't abide someone in my life who acted just like my mother. I have felt relief and more calm. I also understood why in 30 years she sneered and grimaced at me in every photo, it wasn't that she hated having her picture taken, it was about her being a narcissist. The same thing happened with Queen Spider.
DeleteIt has been a rude awakening and it is scary to be this old too and to have had to walk away from so many bad relationships. Yeah we get tortured thinking is it us, but the commonalities among all the narcissists stand out. Nope they were never healthy relationships to begin with. From the start, the disrespect in this "friendship" was there. I have felt relief since planning to end it. I tried too hard for years, just like Queen Spider. I never have regretted cutting a narc lose. Even walking away from the final members of the family even though some were more enablers then narcissists themselves brought me STRONG relief. I could not heal when reminded constantly of inferiority. I think that will apply here too. Yeah I am experiencing the post apocalyptic state of mind=--good term, I feel afraid of people and am living as a semi-hermit with husband, I am not ready to go out and socialize and try again. I am doing some light activities in life like book clubs. Thanks for understanding that especially.
I actually cursed out anon and wrote "I guess moving on means shut the fuck up" but took down the post. But isn't that what they are trying to say to us? Just another narc trying to control what we say, do and feel. I wish those types would shove off. I suspect it is someone from the Defend Narcs and Sociopath blog but I am not sure.
I rescued my paintings from Queen Spider though there may be a drawing of Raggedy Ann and Andy from high school that may have seen the fire pit, but these paintings have been in Ms. Richy Rich's possession since college, so it was too difficult to get them back. I told Queen Spider I needed my paintings for an art show, back in 2009 which was true as I had a mini-DIY show in town here, and well I never gave them back. She never hung any of them up, even one really nice bird one, so I am glad I got them back. I always fear for my art when there is a falling out with narcs. I gave her the vase painting, I posted here last Christmas.
https://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2016/12/quick-study-painting.html?m=1
Thanks Lisette.
I'm sorry it took you a long time to figure your ex-friend out and go NC with her. We get fooled from time to time because narcs were nice to us at first. I had to get rid of a toxic woman whom I thought was my friend after 2 1/2 years of knowing her. Narcs are not easy to spot at first unless they are overt narcs or have been rude and disrespectful to people.
ReplyDeleteHere is one thing I have been thinking. Narcs are very, very nice at first. They would give us attention. They spend time with us. If we have a disability or are poor, we became social outcasts. I am unsure if those who did well in social lives have an extroverted personality and ability to interact with others, or people's person, as some people say. Or if those who are "successful" or "overcome the odds" are narcissistics, children or wealthy people, or those who found wealthy individuals or organizations who would sponsor their education, provide financial support, or pay for their expenses.
Victims of child abuse who did not receive love from their relatives or foster parents do not know the difference between narcs who are too good to be true and normal people. I knew something about normal people's behavior based on my upbringing from my foster parent before I lived with my adopted narc mother. I confronted those who mistreated me earlier in life so when the social media came into the picture, my narc ex-friends knew they could not take advantage of me or abuse me. They rejected my friend requests and ignored my messages on Facebooks.
Your millionaire and military ex-friends sound like they targeted you for their social service case rather than befriending you. Your narc parent probably chose them as your friends since they were psychology majors and "good girls" who did not drink nor took drugs when they were young. Maybe your disability and possible eagerness to make friends made you a target. I'm sorry to hear that you wasted you four years sharing an apartment with a woman who disrespected you for many years. You are right that narcs' behavior has been familiar to you since you had a very heartless malignant narc parent. Your millionaire ex-friend sounds like she was a replacement for your narc mother and your military ex-friend might be a substitute for your narc father and sister.
(cont)
Hi anon, yes I took too long to figure her out. I had worries acouple years ago. We saw each other twice a year so maybe that expanded the time line. Yes we do get fooled because they can be really nice to us in the beginning. This one acted nice at times, but there was this coldness. Even like Queen Spider when I was in that misguided forgiveness mode,I tried to hug her goodbye once, and she stiffened up, it was strange, Just all mean and cold. When I cried over the Hoarders show, where friends were hugging, I thought what kind of friendship is this? I had doubts for years and thoughts about how she was just like my mother, but gave too much excuses thinking well she cares enough to visit you and none of the narc family did that. It makes me ill, she told me she was lonely over the holidays so I had her come out, but whenever I expressed a need it was to be cast off.
DeleteI know I am vulnerable to narcissists, because of my body IRL, and poverty and disablities.I am in the mode now of being more a hermit IRL while having close friends online. This is sad but I told my husband, that I feared my body and other problems may be too huge of a barrier in making friends. My disabilities are very visible, I appear fat but it goes beyond that, people can take one look at me and unless I am wearing a dress down to my ankles, they can see that one leg is double the size of the other and both of them are swollen. I do not appear "normal" at all to other people even beyond the severe weight. In fact when I was sitting downtown to avoid paint fumes alone, the way people approached me frightened me. My husband told he didn't want me outside alone like that again for a long period of time. [he was home helping the painter move furniture]. I overcame a lot as a supersized woman going out in public and being brave, but the social repercussions have been severe. I worry that I am distrustful of people even being nice to me because I fear love-bombing and have had too many narcissists trick me.I think for many narcissists visible disabilities and visible social ackwardness [Aspergers]is like a beacon. I have drawn stronger boundaries around myself but now life is lived mostly spending time with my husband or online or on hobbies or medical needs or resting.
I am glad you got rid of one toxic woman in your life too. Yes it is hard when you trust someone and have them as a friend to realize they are smearing you and hurting you. I had that happen with a friend of 4 years here, who oddly in many ways reminded me of the millionaire friend. They even once met each other. Yes some narcs will disappear or refuse friend requests when you stand up for yourself.
continuing...
DeleteThe Army and millionaire friend, did treat me more like social workers with a social case then like a friend. When I ended the friendship with the millionaire friend, she did not care. She talked to me like I was a child, instead of a nearly 50 year old friend. She denoted exactly no emotions and made it clear that from her end, no real relationship existed. It did make me wonder seriously about those family connections I discovered with the Army friend. Yes they would have been chosen as "good girls", my sisters would be "arranged marriage" --her husband was from the same area. Yes being too eager for friends can be a danger zone. I am not looking for friends IRL, it just has not worked out. Probably future friends will be people I meet in a day health program or senior center, but these will be more activity pals. It makes me sad, that I shared dorm rooms and apartments with someone like this, and in some ways she probably helped to exaceberate the abuse and other negative experiences. Yes their behavior was what was familiar and what I came to expect because of my abuse and lack of love at home. The overlap in personality with this friend, and my mother was extreme strong. The Army friend was more of a covert with smiles and feigned vulnerabilities but she was just as toxic.
Our disability and low-income status made us vulnerable to narcs in social services and religious fields. Narcs had their playgrounds in these areas for centuries even though universities and professional schools are figuring out ways to screen out wrong people from a job in the counseling and pastoral fields. Narcs are very opportunistic and very aggressive when they worked for their careers that lead them to access to low-income and special needs people.
ReplyDeleteSome narc social workers abuse adults with a disability since we are not easy to help. Those who are introverted, have Asperger's spectrum, and a disability combined are "not easy to work with" if we don't inspire them or become a success story. If we don't smile or make ourselves look cute, narcs social workers will try to close our cases. It is their way of devaluing and discarding us for not helping them to get their narc supplies fast. That's when we have to fight until we get what we need or when the narc loses their job. Narc social workers do not have enough stamina to deal with people like us, especially those who refuse to their projects.
When we don't like their corrections, loudmouths, and bullies, they "punished" us by taking away our resources from us. We don't like their ableist views and attitudes. Abusive caretakers and relatives were able to get away with financial abuses against senior citizen and vulnerable adults in the past, but there are legal protections against economic abuses these days. Your ex-friends sound like these types, and I am sad it took you a long time to figure them out and get rid of them. I'm glad your husband is there to give you love and support while you are adjusting to your life.
I had a local friend who showed me signs that she was a narc over the time. I will call her Claude because she wants to use a male name. The first incident occurred about a month or two after we met each other. I don't know when. She started to complain about the restaurant or something. I remember being irritated when she told me not to take olive oil for bread when or told me to ask the waiter/waitress for a cup of hot water so I could place my utensils. She gave me corrections, told me what to think, what to say, and how I was supposed to feel. I stopped her until she realized that I was not for her abuses. We had tension as months went by and we stopped hanging out early last year. (cont)
Yes I have been very vulnerable to narcs in social services and in religious fields. I believe except for my legal knowledge from paralegal school I would have been squished. Here I often let my husband do the communication or we do it together. I I know some people are on their own so have to face people themselves. There are people who are taken advantage of who have worse disabilities and who are more vulnerable. Aspies especially can be shunted aside or shamed for their emotions or not showing enough of what is expected.
DeleteI believe fields working with vulnerable people and pastorships and counseling are very attractive to narcissists. Sometimes people do get screened out. Millionaire friend got blocked from becoming a college counselor, she even earned the master's degree but not the counseling license. She took the practicum twice, I should have listened because even she told me her professors told her she lacked empathy in counseling, and she flunked both times. Her master's degree became useless. So there are times higher level professionals will screen for sociopathy and narcissism, though surely some narcissists are better at feigning empathy then others. I wish I had paid attention, I thought it was because she was "shy and misunderstood". Why was she attracted to the counseling field to begin with?
The Army friend works in the behavioral health division and is extremely high up. Knowing how she views and treats people that's scary to me. She didn't get screened out, in her case she did make it a point in life to feign emotions and vulnerabilities. Even there, she did not come across as cold as millionaire friend but really they are not that much different at the core basics.
continued.
DeleteI am glad I have my husband's love and support. He never liked the millionaire friend and found her cold and uncaring though he was nice and polite to her during visits. I do think many vulnerable people have been abused by narcissists too entering the helping fields. Sometimes they do get screened out and more laws have been passed for protections. For me to learn about disability rights in my case isn't just for interest for a hobby or volunteer work, but also for my own survival.
Yes all those corrections are red flags. I have learned to avoid people like that who wish to correct me or do the "fix-its". I avoid toxic religious people and older women who want to "mother me" or "set me right" now. When they lecture on foods, or brag about eating stringent Spartan diets, or tell me what do do--often things that cost money I don't have, I go poof like a ghost now, rather then putting up with that. I also have become realistic about social status and more in this society. Oh one thing I have noticed about female narcs is often they deny femininity. [there are many non-narc lesbians and others who are transgendered,] but I have seen many female narcisisists who see women as 'weak' and dress in more mannish clothing, and will take male names. This friend dressed more mannish and wore her hair in a severely masculine hair style. I have seen others who have wanted male nicknames like yours wanted to be called Claude, and who have wanted to wear male hats and act like men. Female emotions were not to be accepted.
She found a new friend who eventually told me that Claude is a very wealthy woman who defrauds people, government, and businesses for money and that Claude went under a male name when they first met each other. I heard many stories about Claude that I was cautious when I saw her at church.
ReplyDeleteShe prefers the character of "strong women" or narc women or narc mentality. I usually got angry with Claude for these themes of discussion over the time:
1. Preferences for narc mentality and characters
2. Complaining about food or telling me what I should eat or what I should not eat
3. Telling me what I should say or how I should think
4. Switching and changing minds on restaurants, events, or somewhere we went because it is not narcissistic enough.
Your ex-friends tried to make you a narc, and when you did not become one, they were rude and disrespectful toward you. The millionaire ex-friend devalued and discarded you. The housing story is a ruse. Some homeowners are still dealing with underwater values of their home values these days, so it is something suspicious. Also, narcs do not like your blogs about being ACONs. You are taking their narc supplies away from them, and they got mad. Who cares if they got mad? We don't want to meet their supplies anymore.
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am glad you found out the truth about Claude, Claude is bad news. Yes taking the male name as I wrote above is a warning sign. Yes other red flags are praising people who are "strong", "successful" and of "high status". People who support politics where the "weak" are crushed are to be examined carefully. I have noticed abuses with food, and for me as such a severely fat woman with a rare fat disorder one major red flag for me is when they focus on eating. Millionaire friend was decent about food and eating but many narcs are not. We do not want lectures about diets or corrections. One narc friend refused to eat in restaurants, and ate only extremely austere food on a daily basis, I believe some people go on superiority kicks, telling the fat woman they never let white flour cross their lips, and other endless food rules. I just do not want to hear it. I have to follow some food rules to keep alive from diabetes but I would never impose them on people. Yes when they try to comment on what you think, feel or say that is a major problem. One memory I had come back about Queen Spider is how she would get angry at my laugh, and tell me I laughed wrong. I am not kidding. Some narcissists will comment on every nit they can come up with. Yes many will change their minds based on whims, when the shark is swimming sometimes they want a new place to prey.
DeleteI think the friends wanted me a narc. I believe they enjoyed the feeling of economic and other superiority over me. The Army friend had the ability to change my life, and gave middle class jobs out like candy that my husband would have qualified for one. I do believe if I had become homeless the Millionaire friend would not have lifted a finger to help me. She would have enjoyed my descent to the streets just like Queen Spider. I know how to avoid homelessness and learned to depend on other answers long ago but the feeling I got from all these people is they enjoyed seeing me suffer. That is interesting about the housing story being a ruse. Her area is VERY DEPRESSED. Most houses are underwater. Even my own mother's [now foreclosed house?] is only worth 70% of what it used to be worth. Who would buy a giant mansion in an area where housing values are plummeting? Even these houses have gone down in price according to their Zillow pages. I agree the narcs see this blog as an offront to their narc supply. She avoided this blog for a reason.
Another reason this xfreneny avoided and disliked your blog was jealousy! She will never have anything as cool as a blog based in courage and truth or readers who are grateful for her honesty.
ReplyDeleteThank you anon. You know her treating my blog like it was radioactive was really scary. I remember thinking "what is the big deal?" It must be jealousy or as that message board commenter said, someone who doesn't want to see that an individual is in her reflecting mirror. Thanks so much.
Delete"You get the big gun narcissists out of your life, and then you see the smaller gun ones, but who can just be as damaging." It's true what you say and exhausting. You think you're done and then there's still more work to do to get clear. For me when this has happened, it makes me feel really depressed because it makes me feel uneasy about every person I've ever cared about or who I thought cared about me. I mean on the one hand, it makes you realize that you are getting better at taking care of yourself in the face of people who are unkind, on the other hand, it makes you realize that even when you thought you were able to identify unkindness (wth the big gun narcs), you still had a lot of blind spots left. And it just makes you wonder how many more blind spots you have. And plus all that grieving over lost friendships, or more like grieving over the illusions you have to let go. Necessary but difficult work.
ReplyDeleteThanks for relating and posting, it helps me. Yeah I wondered too about other people and maybe what I wasn't seeing before hand. The millionaire friend even told me this mutual college friend viewed me negatively, I mean where does it end? Yeah we are getting better but then I have felt overwhelmed with the sheer number and some emotional issues about how people must see me with a bad stew of ableism and how Aspies are seen...[Am I pissing off the lot of humanity just being who I am? Too pedantic? etc] I even wanted to talk to the therapists but haven't been able to afford too, about my recent inability to connect to other people. [outside husband and a few other relationships. Yeah there is grief here. Realizing this friend couldn't even muster up enough emotions to even show one emotion about it all was scary. She truly saw me as the worm that didn't matter. It is good I walked.
Delete