Monday, May 7, 2018

Belief in a Cruel God

Here's a strange thought I had the other day....
As I went into ACON recovery, I realized scapegoating was wrong, so why was I in a religion that glorified it????

I'm not here to tell people what to believe or not to believe, but I found myself wondering how a major world religion makes use of scapegoating as one of it's foundational teachings.

This is a point I would like to raise with Smakintosh, if he ever reads here anymore since I've become an unbelieving "heathen" but I don't want to trouble Christians too much, it's just something that occurred to me.

I still think if there is a God, He didn't have to require blood sacrifices to forgive sin, he could have just done it. Humanity is messed up enough demanding scapegoats and people to blame, instead of just solving problems and loving one another.

I have been feeling better like three ton weights have been taken off my back. I have been sick a lot but I am going to the gym, and doing art work and doing my best to enjoy life now too on the good days.

If I consider the idea of any higher power now, it better be a Being that has more morality and compassion then the average human that would never conceive of something like a sociopathic hell, or sending most of humanity there. Perhaps it is beyond our human understand why God is not able to intervene. I met some liberal Christians before who told me they didn't believe God intervened in this world but expected humans to help each other.

Certainly there are many world religions that explore these facets of God. Yesterday I was watching a show that was talking about Sikhs, and I guess the religion kind of reminded me of Bahai and also maybe some theistic Unitarians. One Sikh who was interviewed said they believe God was love. Someone told me on a deconversion board, that some Gnostics believe Jesus was sent to rescue us from Yahweh. There's many who do leave evangelicalism or fundamentalism but still have spiritual questions and thoughts. Many atheists and agnostics also consider questions as to why we are all here. They just don't agree with the answers we have been given.

I don't have to be blamed anymore for stuff going wrong. Before as a Christian they told me I had to strive and beg God constantly for healings, and a good proper American life and money. My mind has been freed from the burden of prayer. I have noticed how much of evangelical Christianity is focused on "fixing your life" and selling God as a life "fixer" or "improver". This goes beyond the prosperity gospel, there is the idea even for your mainstream evangelical Christian, you are supposed to be praying to God for some kind of help and seeing results, even intangible ones. I just never got any of those results. Of course for those of us whose hotline to the Almighty failed, because God is perfect, everything was our fault.

Honestly I never saw any evidence God was that interested in fixing anyone's life. I have thoughts that too much prayer is a safety valve for people who don't have the resources to help someone, but it's better to help someone if you can. Action means a lot more. Today I and my husband went to my food co-op, and it's held at a church in a poor area of town and I cracked a joke, when I saw the sign on their church sign..."God wants you to win" and I said, "Damnit, where's was my winning Lotto ticket?" The irony that we were there to get nearly free charity food, didn't seem to pair up with God wanting us to win. After all couldn't God give us more money? It disturbed me. We weren't there for any preaching only food, but the message that God is looking at people as "winners" and "losers" bugged me.

Religion has married self actualization American style. I read this book called "Selfie" from the library recently where he talked about everything becoming about achievement, and we now have this society of "perfection" that has oppressed us all. I can tell the evangelical and fundamentalist churches sell that all the time now. God was a vehicle for us to become "winners", not be broken down, poor, down and out, traumatized God was supposed to fix you. Many programs in these churches focus on fixing your finances, your marriage, your parenting, your work life and more. Perhaps this why the religious right God is so mean, "imperfection" is no longer acceptable in life, or in some areas of religion.

A giant burden was lifted off me, when I realized when bad stuff happens, it doesn't mean I am being punished. When evangelicals and fellow fundies subscribed every bad thing that happened to me due to some "evil" force that they seemed to say was contained within in me, it got wearing. Having religion stress you out too, as everything goes wrong, can suck. I wish I had been able to enjoy more of my life, not thinking I had to "fix" everything or have some kind of miraculous healing to prove my "worthiness" or worrying all the time about being "good" and/or "perfect".
I was tired. I wasn't seeing great religious results. Their promises failed me.  Satan and pals seemed to be winning on every front but then I had thoughts they were just handy fall-guys. The fundamentalist religion became like a comic book series between the hero and his nemesis, except Batman at least shows up to really help when you call on him.

 In looking at this world, I don't see much evidence Yahweh cares about humans at all, of course many come to the conclusion there is very little evidence of an intervening God at all.  Trying to be a "good Christian" was a chain around my soul. I felt like God was just another person in my life I was not good enough for. I saw no difference between Him, and my narcissistic abusers who told me, that I better do such and such, or receive their wrath. Some parts of the biblical story really make no sense to me the more I examine them. I wonder why did the devil rebel? If God was kind to him and everything was great what reason would anyone have to rebel? I don't buy the story now that the devil was just greedy, I mean after all as one of the highest angels in the mythology what did he have to be angry about?

The evangelical/fundamentalist Christian theology is an immoral system. Why does God only offer punishment and no rehabilitation after a short lifetime on this earth?  Even some human beings seem to have more mercy. Sadly the USA prison system has gone back to "punishment" but even in our history we had reformers who looked at "rehabilitation" and changing lives and in Europe they have prisons that focus on just that like in Norway. This means God's system is less developed then many prison system of human beings.

What does only punishment teach, but to tell a criminal to try and not get caught next time? It does not teach better choices, or higher functioning. It does not teach empathy. Sure if God was real, he should be able to rehab recalcitrant human beings with barely lifting a pinkie finger. Even with the sociopaths, who have no chance of reformation who love evil, God wouldn't have to light them on fire to scream for eternity, he could simply put them in their own place, to protect others from them, you know kind of like prisons do today with life sentences, no beatings or burnings included. Just protection. This means this God operates on a far lower level then much of humanity. That disturbs me. How is that a loving God?

When one leaves Christianity the thoughts about no more guarantees of heaven weight heavily. You do ponder the possibilities that this life is it. I having some remaining theistic leanings consider there could be an eternity of some sort but hopefully without a cruel hell for most people. So you get a short sojourn on earth 20-90 years of life, and then you have to pay for it for ETERNITY? How is that just?

I had the thought a truly enlightened Being, would allow human beings to learn and change. While Hinduism has problems, like the caste system, at least the reincarnation system gives second and third chances. Before my deconversion, I got in a weird mood and said to husband at least in those religions people get more chances.

If you think about it, hell is not really something that leads people to a rational choice. It turns God into a monster holding a gun to someone's head, actually a weapon worse then a gun, and using coercion to step up. How many assent to love for God and Jesus simply because they don't want to go to hell? A lot of my conversion centered around wanting to be rescued from hell's firey pit. Hell appeals to humankind's revenge fantasies, it tells me humanity has a few steps to evolve. I want to cry over the times I made people scared of hell too when I went "witnessing". I studied hell for a time and it was a mind blower to learn Judaism, even the Judaism of Jesus's time did not teach a hell as Christians are now taught. That came much later.

I also believe real love is impossible under force and have had strange thoughts if we did have some cruel god maybe it's pissed because no one really loves it and are just scared out of their wits. Oddly when I was a Christian, I could drum up a lot more love for Jesus, except his teachings on hell and a few other things, then I could for Yahweh.  When I got honest with myself, I realized I was actually kind of scared of Yahweh, and yes I had a lot of guilt about it. Remember I have read the entire bible, I know the Old Testament is full of God ordering people to be killed or doing it himself from the Great Flood to women, children and babies in multiple OT verses. 

I was taught in the IFB it's too late already, unless you "accepted" Jesus on your deathbed, you were toast, God wasn't going to face you and then let you in, you screwed up, and it was over. If you think about it none of us humans are given a real choice, we are coerced and the weapon is hell. There's no second chance. There's no going to heaven, seeing God and Jesus and apologizing for one's disbelief and getting a second chance.

Is a cruel God in fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity leading to more cruelty in our society?  When I was a Christian I did heavy bible study, and encountered the Old Testament verses where God ordered killings, and remember talking about this with other fundamentalist Christians. They would tell me, "God's ways are not our ways" or give me the God is mysterious comment. That stopped working. I realized something was very very wrong.  If humanity will accept a God that doesn't have even base compassion for little babies and people and has no problem burning people for eternity so wonder we have a violent and sick society.  One thing to pay attention to, is how cruel is someone's God? Do they believe most people go to hell? Or do they believe that God is love? These things matter. Our country is being affected now by the most extreme set of evangelical and fundamentalist Christians whose God, is definitely on the cruel side. 
 I am now an UU agnostic, but if I was to believe or accept a god it cannot be hell and death inventing and creating cruel Yahweh. Today I believe the Christian god is a human creation with all the faults there of, and here we see it's barbaric bronze era tribe roots. There are liberal Christians out there, who have beliefs that God "evolved" and the Bible definitely is not literal such as the fundamentalists taught me. They do see the Bible as a "human instrument" while I was taught that the Bible was 100 percent true, and supposed to be the guide for one's entire life and for facts about the world. Fundamentalist preachers told me God killed all those people in the OT, because they were tainted, were "nephilim" [that's some crazy stuff] and committed great sins, but how does that explain the little kids getting it in Ezekiel 9? 

There is some embarrassment in coming out of hard core fundamentalism. It's hard to even explain to more liberal Christians what I came out of and what I was taught. Sometimes I think I have shocked my fellow UUs, telling them there is a patriarchy movement in fundamentalist churches that teach men are in charge with no questions to be asked. In renouncing beliefs I held so strongly for so many years, people don't know what to make of you. You confuse them. They don't know what to expect. I kept silent except on this blog and support boards online about my deconversion. Some friends were told, but some were not. I moved away from an extremely evangelical and religious small town to a very religious place. Here it is the norm, people will invite you to their church or assume you are a Christian. 

In my case, I am no longer a Christian. There are things I still find worthwhile about the religion, I understand people seeking love, compassion and answers, that always will make sense to me. People are seeking and desiring love and answers. I understand all of that.



  1. interesting thoughts , i dont have a problem with faith i have a problem with church . How so many people can think you can buy your way to God baffles me , its the same book theyre all reading , but its so old and vague that you can interpret it to fit whatever you agenda is. Im surprised there isnt a Church of Twilight somewhere

  2. Thanks, I agree about the difference between faith and church and yes I have seen where a meme asked "Why does God need money?" It is true the Bible can be used as a template: like an eight ball they shake to get whatever they want out of it, and sadly many do use it for evil agendas. LOL I'm surprised too. I did encounter some folks known as Christian goths...LOL but I was too fundie to go that way.

  3. Dear Peeps, i had a really hard time with the reality of the people of Canaan being slaughtered by the Hebrews; it has only been recently that i learned of really weird stuff they were doing - like eating people. (Numbers 14:28, something about "consuming the inhabitants"). Ew!

    1. Sure my fundamentalist preachers told me, God had these people killed because they were Nephilim, having sex with animals, committing incest and other "really bad stuff" but even if one thinks of all that in at least three instances I can think of innocent babies and little children are included in the "killing orders". Also if God is omnipotent why make people you know one day will snack on each other? I know people are trying to figure out God's reasoning there, but this is where one gets in trouble when they believe in the Bible in the literal way as I once did.

  4. Hi Peep,

    I've been a long time visiter of your blog, and saw your journey when you first went no contact from your family. One blog entry, in particular, still haunts me. It's a photo of a door, and it was the time your queen spider mom randomly stopped by with your niece, and how you made her stay outside (loved that!). That was downright creepy, though.

    You're a beautiful soul, Peep, and a very talented artist. To me, it's quite obvious that your queen spider mother and sister were jealous of you, of your gifted creativity, your humanity, the way you can connect to people on a deep level. I've never met you but I feel like I know you just from your blog. That's harnessed power, Peep. That's what scared the living shit out of them, and why you were targeted....and boy were you targeted.

    I'm saddened to hear you are no longer a believer in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. My faith in God brought through some of the darkest times in my life.


    1. Hi Anon,

      Yes you remember the post where she stopped by with surprise with the niece.

      That niece stopped talking to me. That was hard. Thanks for pointing out they could be jealous, like wanting to squelch someone's spirit out of jealousy. They both hated me so much, maybe that explains why. Yeah I was targeted.

      I am glad your faith helped you too. I know my deconversion did surprise some people. It was not expected.

  5. At the time, I was living in an old, historic home in the same town as Narco family. My father, the enabler, was dying, and only had months to live. My husband and I had a big fight that day, and I was home alone that night as he was staying at a hotel. Around 3am, I awoke facing my bedroom door. There was a little light on down the hall, and that's when I saw a black shadow slide down the attic ceiling door and enter my room. It was late March, but my room felt like a freezer. I was shaking under the covers as I saw a large, black mass walk slowly at the end of my bed.

    I have a heart condition, and I recall saying to myself, "close your eyes and pretend it's not there." I was so afraid if I had open my eyes, my heart would go into an immediate dangerous arrhythmia. These were my thoughts at the time. I was completely awake when this happened, and can recall every detail.

    I then felt this pressure on my chest and/or solar plexus. This force was pushing me into the bed. It was extremely painful. There was rushing sound in my ear, and when I said "Jesus" His name came out of my mouth the way you would imagine someone saying His name as they sky dived - imagine the ballooned cheeks, the free falling. That's the sensation.

    I was gone, Peep. I don't even know where I went afterwards. I awoke the next morning at 11am (a Sunday), and it was like I didn't sleep at all.

    There is definitely a spiritual realm, higher and lower frequencies. My negativity that day, fighting with my husband, my extreme potty mouth at the time, drew this evil to me. I've seen and felt it, Peep.

    If there is evil, and ACONS have, unfortunately, experienced its many manifestations in the form of family, then there has to be the opposite - divine love/goodness (Ying/Yang).

    Jesus Christ is the only divinity/god who sacrificed his life for all humanity. And his father, God, allowed his own son to die an unimaginable, cruel, painful death for people.


    1. I saw "shadow people" once when I had not slept in 4 days, but I subscribed it to lack of sleep hallucinations. Being awake for 96 hours does things to the human brain. I was not a Christian when I saw them, but it was frightening seeing fleeting shadows crawling among the ceiling. I was seeing after images with doors and when things moved, I guess maybe if like someone took acid. Don't stay awake for 3-4 day kids, your brain will melt and mine did.

      There are certainly things I believe we do not understand in this world. I can accept your experience, odd things do happen to people.

      People have talked about feeling freezing areas too when encountering the supernatural.
      I can understand you protecting yourself by keeping your eyes closed.
      Maybe you passed out, that is possible. I am glad you came out of that okay.

      I am not a complete atheist, and still ponder realities of a spiritual realm...agnostic. One reason I left Christianity, is I did make the decision is it seemed to be of darkness. Think Trump, the evil fundamentalism I crawled out of. I thought to myself, how can I be of these people I see who support so much evil. I followed my conscience to leave. I really was NOT one of them. There are nice Christians don't get me wrong, but I see the system as controlling in it's own way.

      One thing I have talked about only a little here, is in Christianity, I got deep into bible prophecy and conspiracy theories, I used to warn Christians, about Dominionism and other things online and what some would call "evil' developments in Christianity. I didn't consider myself a prophet or anything crazy like that, I was kind of like John Pavolitz though not part of the Christian "left" being an IFB fundie, but I would write online articles [not for money] against the religious political right, came out against Trump and asked why Christians hated the poor. So I got kind of deep into religion and did intense bible studies. Very intense stuff. The more I explored, the more I found things that were wrong in the religion itself. I asked why are Christians [evangelical and fundie] ones so brutal, so loving of authoritarianism, etc, and to be honest this led me out of the religion itself. With Jesus, I still have a soft spot for him outside of his teachings about hell. I suppose liking the moral teachings of Jesus is normal for a UU, but I do ask why the Father had to be so cruel, and I've recently pondered the ideas of how a negative parental paradigm was rooted in human religion where even our world religions have been impacted by human realities regarding power struggles, and family systems.

      I do agree with there there being a spiritual realm, human religions definitely seek towards something.


    2. I am sorry you felt this evil and felt you drew it to yourself. I am not sure. It could have come via other ways. I know the way my mind works now, I consider the scientific but don't outrule the spiritual or things we don't understand like maybe some of those who are harder core materialists might.

      ACONS definitely have experienced many manifestations of evil. I know I have. Even now deconverted, when it comes to relatives, I feel like a cloud of darkness. I am being "massively" hoovered again, where they are using someone's impending death, a person, I even said I had no beef with who didn't contact me all these years. I wish I had been able to move away, the pressures can be immense.

      Many UUs, we do ponder some kind of divine love in the universe. I suppose I see this possibility now as outside the Christian realm. The idea of a traditional Christian god, doesn't work for me personally anymore. I saw no evidence of intervention, and trust me before I deconverted I was praying most fervently for a long time. Too many of the "cruelties" of God seem human made. Obviously most of human kind seems to think something is out there, a higher power or order of some sort. We only know so much of the universe.

  6. When I was working at a newspaper while I went to university, someone there had a satanic bible. So one day, out of curiosity, I started reading it. It was about doing what THOU wilt. Doing Your will instead of the God's will. I It spoke of seeking your own vengeance instead of "Vengeance is mine...I will repay."

    Following your own will, taking up vengeance, being your own god? Often for many ,this road in life equals disaster - incarceration, poor judgement, a life cut short. Some, however, play this ego card very well, and even profit from it - Trump comes to mind.

    You can't deny the time-tested wisdom of the Bible - Proverbs, Psalms. Living His way is choosing life. It's uncomplicated, simple living. We are still affected by sin - our own and other people's. Nobody is immune to sin. But the promises, Peep, how no weapon formed against you will prosper. How God is working all things out for our good, even when we can't see His plan.

    If I had been living for Christ during those years I was in contact with my narco mother/sister, I know my reactions would have been calmer and wiser, way less emotional. They would have had less perceived "dirt" on me as they were counting on my reactions to their abusive tactics as proof I was the problem to everyone else. I didn't know my mother and sister hated my guts then.

    Time is of unimportance to God. Time is everything to us humans. The Israelites, God's chosen via His friendship/promise with Abraham, suffered under Egyptian rule for 300 years until they were delivered by Moses.

    We may never see the justice, validation and even reconciliation we crave from our family's painful betrayal and abandonment on earth. But this will make sense one day.

    You are a dear, kind, amazingly creative soul, Peep. You are one of the good guys. You were born on the side of light.


    1. Oh correction above, I was not at level of John P who is well known, just on my little corner of the internet. I am still deconstructing the fundamentalist stuff.

      Thanks for saying I am a beautiful soul.

      During my first deconversion, I actually read or actually skimmed the Satanic Bible. Religion lifelong was one of my Aspie "interests". I actually have steered myself a bit away from it on purpose because I went to a bad place with it with the fundamentalism and conspiracy stuff. I didn't just study art ed in college but would go to the remote area of the college library to read just about every esoteric book. The Satanic bible I found in a bookstore though. It was heavy on the "do what you want stuff"

      Spiritually for some of us having the sociopathic mother who always "wins" can be a great test. I have had the temptations for revenge, and to "be more like her" so I am not a "weak sucker". American society is built to turn us all into bitches and narcissists. For every ACON there is the pressure to "become like them". I know my own temptations to desire "respect" and "status" could bite me on the ass in the spiritual/kindness and goodness realm. Remember she always used money to lure me though most of the time it was peanuts: no life changing money or using her connections to get husband a job to change our life.

      With revenge, probably every ACON faces those temptations, depending on the level of abuse. Many average folks will avoid a lot of bad behavior to avoid prison and the courts, but there's the spiritual element too. You are right it leads to disaster. For a scapegoat whose name is already mud, this simply empowers the narcissist to turn and point and say, "See I told you they were evil". That is the insidious thing here, no matter what we do, we seem to lose except in the getting and staying away. I lost 40 or more people, even the so called "best friends" because they defended my family.

      I know one reason I did deconvert, is I saw no justice in this world, even for other people. This is one reason I lost belief in an intervening God. I saw far worse horrors happen to other people. I saw people literally crushed like my Aunt Scapegoat. That's not the way it was supposed to happen where evil won.

      People don't realize that when I walked and lost the whole family, it was painful as hell. I had to hold out losing everything. Even now more punishment seems in store for my being no contact. If you can move away so your abusers don't know where you live, do it.

      Trump definitely is one who played the ego card well. Others did as well too. What I see in the world is often the evil "winning", yes it bothers me. I know many Christians believe in Romans 8 but in my life, that one didn't work. one friend told me she believes God chooses some and not others. There is a lot of inexplicable misery and suffering in this world, I did lose the ability to see "purpose" in a lot of it.

      Yes I know the more emotional reactions, they feed off it. So understand. They use emotions for dirt and turn them on you. I had stone cold walls, when I cried, I had to have so much discipline simply "not to react", and had to act against my own nature for years. They know how to push buttons or use one's poverty against you, and other bad stuff. I figured out I was hated too, and some will even pretend not to hate you, writing things like "we will always love you".

      It's too bad you had to suffer the same too. I hope things are better now. Thanks for saying I am one of the good guys, I appreciate that.

  7. Great insight, Peep! A theology based on a sacrificial lamb (how barbaric is THAT?) taking on the sins of the world, justifies a scapegoat taking on the abuse of a family. As a child, I thought it was my job to shoulder adult problems and cry myself to sleep. AND I had a picture of Jesus at Gethsemane in my bedroom! Maybe I got a headstart at being an empath but also wish I had a childhood instead.

    1. Yes thank you...I asked WHY IS A SCAPEGOAT necessary in this religion and think about WHO set this system up, demanding the blood sacrifice in the first place? I also had thoughts like, what kind of Being who is perfect, would make creatures who are IMPERFECT and then PUNISH them for it, and natural biological drives it created as part of their operating system like SEX? I had funny thoughts I talked about on a deconversion board where I said, I wish Jesus had stood up to Dad and said, "look you know this isn't necessary, you can forgive people without someone dying and or being beaten up" The scapegoat message in Christianity disturbs me. I mean us scapegoats were used as the family trashcans, the goat sent out into the desert with all the sins loaded on us. Yeah, I thought it was my job too and was told to carry everything. Yeah understand with the pictures of Jesus.

    2. And don't get me started on all those virgin martyrs! Lol Now there's a role model! Built-in birth control(never having sex) AND submitting to Roman sadism! (Although I liked St. Agnes, with her long hair and the lamb she carried around.) Always painted as beautiful to inspire emulation. How does pain and death make you "holy"? For whose agenda? Who's making this **** up? Back to your point, yes let's retire the tired trope of martyrdoom and also of impoverished artists and visionaries. Some equate this disenchantment with sacred suffering with the passing of the Piscean Age. (A side note -Van Gogh did not kill/martyr himself! Most likely an accidental homicide.) Anyone who justifies "the blood of the lamb" or anyone/thing else, is a vampyre.

    3. I suppose I got in this religious turmoil asking this question WHY DOES THE CHRISTIAN GOD NEED BLOOD? Some of these thoughts were on the edges, but then since Jesus was the "replacement" for too many religions doing the human sacrifice thing, well think about it, that is what the religion "evolved" from. I can go with the love your neighbor, and golden rule stuff etc etc, but no apologist gave me a good answer for this question. Of course hell is another major problem.

      Protestantism and evangelicalism/fundamentalism cleaned up the blood a bit. I grew up Catholic, they taught us in Catholic school we were literally eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus Christ [google Transubstantiation] Oh and I am old enough to have seen those Catholic statues of the bloodied martyrs in Catholic school, convent and church where blood poured down their sides due to different abuses, crown of throwns, stab in the side, and taught about female saints who had their heads cut off or were will to die instead of being raped, etc.

      Yes always painted in that very beautiful egg tempura style. I wonder too whose agenda? Why so much suffering? For control? George Carlin and Hitchens and I think Ingersoll wrote this was about keeping humans "contented with their lot" in that there was "salvation to be found in suffering".

      The whole religion is based on the foundations that someone had to bleed and get the stuffing beaten out of them and die [though He rose again later] for sins to be forgiven.

      Where did all that come from. [agree about Van Gogh-- a lot has been fabricated about him] Can humanity even progress somewhere good, if their religion is based in the "suffering is good" model? And lets not forget that many profit off said suffering and enjoy it.

  8. I'm sorry religious people are so cruel to you and others who are dealing with malignant narcs. Religion is narcs number one favorite tool to keep others down and depressed. If you look at faces of religious people versus those who not religious, in pictures, videos, and movies, you will notice that they are less attractive, insecure, and vulnerable looking.

    Over the years, you will notice that some of these people are motived by money and security from a hard life and dealing with rejections from cruel Christians. Many people do not want to deal with Christians who would tell them that God wants them to do something that nobody wants to do: live in abject poverty until they break down and grovel for God's answers.

    Recently, I noticed three things that people do to get money and that most fundamentalist Christians are in it for money. Christians who want money would:

    1. Pray to beg God for money. If they don't get the money or are short-changed, Christian leaders or parents would mentally or emotionally abuse troubled young adults or low-income adults.

    Two years ago, a college freshman named Liz spent two months praying and begging for money so she could spend two weeks in Paris with a Cristian group called Campus Crusades for Christ. Liz wrote a blog about her Christian ministry at Paris, but she did not specify whether she would be there the whole summer or for two weeks. She asked for $3,000. (cont.)

    1. If I die and find out I am wrong and the Christian god is true and about to point to the hot place, I will tell him, "You had your chance"

      yes the religious people while a few individuals were nice they were cruel. Many were just in the cage with me in the fundamentalist churches, scared out of their wits too by hell. That God didn't endear much empathy.Well we can see it in their politics.

      Yes religion serves as a control matrix tool and there's no greater shaming advice. Also there's the idea there too you "deserve" what you get.
      Yes one can see very religious people who look insecure, and who are broken down. Christianity is a religion especially on the fundamentalist level sold to broken down, desperate and traumatized people. God and religion are sold as a solution and to give one's life meaning which I do not blame people including myself in running after it.
      Yes many are motivated by money. I also notice money affects the religions thing. Most of the most ardent Christians I see on FB, are ones who have had secure financial lives and loving families. Maybe if "God" had bothered to look out for me, things would have gone different for me too. I don't think God exists now but if it did, it treated me as a "throwaway" same as the family. There was so many times when if a slight dime had dropped the path could have gone far different.

      So yeah poverty is good for the underlings these type of Christians abuse and they will tell you God is teaching you through your endless suffering or "changing you" or "teaching you lessons" if they aren't telling you directly that all your problems or hard life are your fault and a result of your wickedness.

      Religion and cash are tied together. I believe a lot of churches and religion is about status seeking and wearing that veneer as a person blessed by God. I was told to pray to God for money [or good job for husband] God definitely didn't deliver on that one and allowed me loss of dignity and many other things too numerous to mention that I posted on all the poverty articles. One thing about poverty is how it makes you more PRONE to abusers. It gives them an "in". Narcissists can make hash out of low-income adults over decades. I should make this an article topic and post on it. I can't even explain the shame, and lack of a place in life I've been denied due to poverty. Years ago when I became a Christian, I thought the Christian religion could give me meaning beyond the money obsessed American society. It made it worse. I find that college freshman ludicrous. By the way it does not cost three thousand dollars to go to Paris. She and her mother were being ripped off and told to rip off others. She was basically being sold a religious vacation that was extremely overpriced. I think it is sickening all the poverty and problems in America, and they sell these religious vacations under the guise of religion and "missions". It is a joke.

  9. Liz's mother posted her blog/fundraising page on her Facebook page asking people to pray for her to get the money. Her mother claimed she could come up with at least 10% but wrote a comment that she was glad she was not wealthy enough to pay $3,000 and eased Liz's anxiety. Liz spent two months living in fear wondering if God did not want her to go to Paris and God does not have a beautiful plan for her life. Liz spent the last week in suspense, crying, begging and in anxiety wondering if God wanted her to go to Paris.

    The night before she was supposed to depart, she was $1,500 short! The next money, Liz, and her mother announced that Liz could go to Paris but did not tell people how she came up with the last $1,500. Liz's mother commented to the effect that it was good for Liz's soul and spiritual maturity to go through this anxiety for two months. What perplexed me was that Liz needed $3,000 for two weeks of her ministry in Paris rather than the whole summer. It sounded like she did not get a group discount and had to pay more for the two-week trip.

    Christian people who make this argument usually argue that young Christian learned to lean on to God rather than to others or that God is first in their lives. I got bad memories of my days with the Intervarsity when I read these post. Many people would beg and pray for money, especially when they want to go on a trip, go to college or do something that improves their life.

    2. The second thing people do is to put on their charms and narcissism for money. Young college students who want a fully funded scholarship, work for an organization like Teach for America or AmeriCorps, or join a program that helped them to get into graduate school (McNair Scholars or Underrepresented Minority Research program) would develop conservative narcissistic character and positive thinkings. I noticed a website of recipients of Gates Scholarships who are underrepresented minorities and low-income. Some scholarship programs reward those who could do well in STEM courses and courses in weed-out programs such as accounting and economics. These people tend to appear as Manchurian candidates, perfect, smiling, and overly accomplished. I read some statements these people made that showed me their out-of-touch, conservative, close-minded views like those subscribed by J.D. Vance, an author of "The Hillbilly Elegies." (cont.)

    1. That's sad that girl got so desperate for her religious vacation. I am sure the religious salespeople were telling her it was God's Will and she would be sinning against God not to go, and she had to come up with the goods or earn God's ire. What a business plan! Now imagine 1000s of naive teenagers who have been told they must do God's will being told to do fundraising for the Lord. Christianity keeps it's young people naive as hell. Hell the religion took me to a place where magical thinking and worse made me too blind to a lot of bullshit. I sometimes wonder if religion can be a pit to thicken the narc fog in general.

    2. It looks like Liz cried her way to the cash, shouldn't she be saving for huge college bills instead or an apartment? but think about her two months of misery. Someone's profiting off this bullshit and no one asks why is the trip so expensive. Remember the Duggars, one couple is always begging for money. This one church wanted 20,000 for some in-house "ministry" program Derick Dillard wanted to be part of....he needs money or to go get a job or apply for disability rather then running around raising 20,000 dollars for a church program. Why do they need that money? No one ever answers these questions.

      Liz's mother sounds like she drank the Kool-Aid, think about this that poor girl will be ripe for any salesperson or anyone else with a pitch after that nonsense.
      I think it is sad, how they tell people in religion to go fund raising or demand money. I had pressure put on me because I was so broke and not a source of funds, to go make converts. [aka witness]

  10. 3. Some poor people would betray others, including their spouse, to get money from their enemies and their abusers. Some victims of domestic violence physical and economic abuse would stay with their abuser to get the money.

    Abusive people would pay paltry sums rather than giving generous funds because they want people to come back to them for more. They want to control people and other people's attention, so they pay very little to make sure their recipients are not too comfortable and contented. Abusers want their recipients to quarrel with those who refused to take their bribery and peanuts.

    Those who are very poor and desperate would take the offer and sell their souls to the devil, regardless of the sources and the amount of the money. In essence, they would hop on a van and let human traffickers sell their body for organ donation and sexual slavery! If somebody is so down and out broke, they will take $100 from the worst abuser imaginable.

    Abusers usually know that the particular recipient needs much more but do not want people to feel comfortable. They want strife and blood. Desperate people are narcs' favorite magnet. Any ACONs and victims of narcs are the best being at least 1,000 miles away from their malignant narc parents, exes, and other main narcs in their lives.

    Abusive Christians and religious people are the least supportive and helpful bunches, especially those who would tell those who suffer that God wants them to suffer and grew to become dependant on God. Their main argument is that God wants them to put him first in their lives. The Bible mentioned that people should not worship false idols, but the idea of giving up your life, family, and friends to put God first in your life might be a man-made idea that came out of Europe or a man who created a cult. Maybe it was Joseph Smith's idea, a man who founded Mormon churches.

    1. Religion is a money game, sad to say in too many places. While I understand churches needing money to operate and pay light bills etc, even my UU church collects some monies there are abusive churches, where they exploit people for cash. I wonder if the religious vacations and missions industry is a giant multi-million dollar industry?

      In the Catholic church, many religious nuns and monks have to make a vow of poverty, and I know I was told in Catholic school sometimes God wanted people to be poor, to give all their money to give it away to God or he kept others poor to "teach them a lesson"

      “It’s common knowledge that the "church" is nothing more than an invention of the priesthood designed to swindle the ordinary people of the empire out of just about everything they own.”
      ― David Eddings, The Treasured One

      In my narc family there was this idea, that the richer people were far more "holy" and better. I saw this difference. Sure abusers will sprinkle a few crumbs, but they will never give a job [they have connections to make happen] that changes a life, or real money, just enough to keep you poor for life and on the stick. When it comes to money, sadly too many human beings would throw anyone under the bus. I've seen it happen. The people who use God for the money games and exploitation are sickening.

      Many have warned religion was designed by the powers that be to keep power. I am now of that mind, though I understand the seeking of some positives in spirituality too.
      I was told God wanted me to suffer so I could be "dependent" on him and be led to more holiness. It's bullshit. In some religious circles, poverty is glamorized if anything poverty makes you more desperate and if the poverty is bad enough [think Maslow's needs list] and you are going without food and medical care, decent housing etc, it breaks you down as a person. This influences the politics of the religious right who do not want any fair and equitable wages and want to see suffering and poverty because they glamorize poverty and see it as God's will.

  11. "WHY DOES THE CHRISTIAN GOD NEED BLOOD?" Fun to vanquish this precept once and for all by realizing it's "The Little Shop of Horrors" with Rick Moranis. Churchianity's God is Audrey the plant - "FEED ME, SEYMOUR! - singing " I'm the mean green mother from outer space and I'm bad! I'm the mean green mother from outer space and IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE BEEN HAD!" LOL

    1. That's the question I asked, when I realized blood sacrifices were the terrain of ancient barbaric cultures {Jesus was like a human/blood sacrifice 2.0] and realized why Yahweh acted like a war chieftan in the OT and it cracked the entire edifice for me, THAT DAY. It is like the "Little Shop of Horrors" feed me. LOL about mean green mother's from outerspace. I guess at least the [fictional] giant plant talked back!

  12. Hey there Peep. Your blog has comforted me many times over the years as I have had some similar experiences- especially with the poverty aspect.

    I’ve struggled with the “why” of it all as well- why would God do x or y. My take on the whole scapegoating archetype is that it’s symbolic of what [narcissistic] people do, not necessarily God’s idea of how things should be done. It plays into, imo, how people in general have a hard time taking responsibility for their actions- especially when considering the sacrificial scape goat is supposed to be the best of the litter (ie representing the rate human who does take responsibility).

    I could be way off there but I’ve spent a lot of time researching and pondering the topic myself so figured I might be able to share ideas.

    Thanks for sharing yours on this great blog!

    1. I agree with you about the whole scapegoating thing where people don't want to be responsible for actions, I dare say that is more of the human construct of the religion but it's true in this case, the sacrificial scapegoat is supposed to be "perfect" the best of the lot. One considers how so much of humanity is based in status and how many power hungry narcissists ran things, and how did we end up with these ideas of scapegoating. I would like to think if there was a God it wouldn't be one taking a tally score of everything a person did wrong too. That seems to be a bit much. The best teachers I ever knew, used some positive reinforcement and bringing out the best in their students, not a constant list making of all their "wrongs". Thanks for your kind words regarding the blog :)