My answer in short is NO.
Lucky Otter differs.....
"I think it's time we stop bashing all narcissists"
God forbids vengeance and we are to avoid repaying evil for evil, but when it comes to narcissists and the wicked in this world, there are many who desire the enabling of evil. Anger in itself is not sinful, it depends on what you do with it. There is such a thing as righteous anger that is used to protect oneself and the innocent.
I wrote Lucky Otter the comment below in warning her. We have a world now where many tell good people they must love the unrepentant wicked and this is one reason why wicked people have been able to hurt so many people. Often the enablers even use this kind of logic telling people they were not loving enough to the narcissist. Every Scapegoat in the world was told these lies, that they were not kind and loving enough to their abusive narcissistic or sociopathic parents. We were told we were not kind enough, not forgiving enough. We were told by cruel narcissists we were mean bitter people even for drawing healthy boundaries.
One thing to consider is how many do excuse evil in this world using situational ethics, or telling the world, that the guy who just murdered a dozen people had a "hard home life". There is a point where a human being does make the choice for good or evil and in the case of malignant narcs I believe they have seared their consciences making the decisions for evil. Yes there are narcissists who are lower down the spectrum who perhaps could get help or turn to God, but most blogs that write about narcissism make for those allowances.
I am concerned about Lucky Otter's defenses of narcissists, it has gotten to the point, I am going to have to unlink her blog from this one. It is something that has been troubling me for awhile. I like and care about Lucky Otter especially since she is a fellow Aspie but I do not want anyone on this blog led to bad places emotionally or psychologically.
My religious beliefs about evil which are rooted in being a born again Christian, are on a different page from Otter's. My beliefs about narcissism and what should be done biblically when it comes to the wicked also are completely different. The call to love, forgive [with no repentance from their end] and feel sorry for the "abused little narcs" for me is the last straw. This is asking people to be doormats and abused more by evil. I am going to pray and hope she is shown the truth about wicked people. Her beliefs concern me even for her own sake, in being led to a place where she is to feel sorry for narcs or whom even smakintosh once warned in one of his videos about "Hugging the Vampires."
Lucky Otter, I can't hug the vampires, or feel sorry for the narcs. I do not believe God mandates this. I believe many false churches and no I am not pointing at your specific type of church but a lot of them out there are teaching people to endorse, enable, excuse evil. Jesus called the evil VIPERS, he didn't hold back. He said exactly what they were in the book of Matthew 23:33:
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
I wrote this comment on Lucky Otter's blog:
I disagree with you here. If anything the entire world is wrapped about defending the feelings of the narc. If anything every institution takes up for the narcs as scapegoats get smashed down again and again. I have gotten smashed down for narcs over and over, while no one cared about how I felt. A narc that wants help and wants to change in my book isn’t even a malignant narc, that is someone with fleas or borderline personality disorder or other spiritual problems but not a narc or what I call in Christian spiritual terms. “SEARED” and “REPROBATE”. Show me a narc who has REALLY REPENTED. If they have then they are not a sociopath and most likely not a malignant narcissist. False churches will teach enabling of the evil. Otter, I mean what I say about that, there are many invested in desiring the evil is enabled.
It would behoove us all to refrain from making hate-filled comments of the kind Otter mentioned, but to go steps further to feel sorry for the evil one who does not want to change, chooses to do evil to hurt others... No. We must stop being in their sites AND continue to educate us all on the dangers of this kind of evil... Stop harassing the poor narcs & calling them out is silencing the victims & leaving many wide open to great harm - which is apparently one of the ruling laws of our world. :(
ReplyDeleteI agree we should refrain from hate fill stuff, but I agree feeling sorry for narcs is one thing they love. Don't they make all the flying monkeys and enablers sorry while there is not one emotion for the scapegoat? It does enable evil. It allows it to have a place. We can all feel sorrow that once upon a time a narc was a little baby where there was every potential but they choose evil and to shut down their conscience. We need to warn people of the dangers. Feeling sorry or worrying about their feelings over our own is what got many enslaved to them in the first place. Many ACONs can attest to the fact this was on technique of the narcissists. Yes telling people to stop "being mean" to the narcs...I VERY RARELY ever see an ACON write something just about being hate-filled towards a narc--is seeking to silence victims and leaving others open to their evils. These are not cute, and cuddly people, they are HURTING others. Graveyards are full of those who were soul murdered and could not survive it. Some of the worse have committed even more heinous and direct acts. Others have led others to suffer in pain for years, and kept the therapist couches full. This world wants evil excused. Jesus Christ stood up against it.
DeleteI guess I'm the first to comment. I knew my post would upset you, Peep and was even prepared for you to remove my blog from your blog roll. I respect your religious beliefs but you are right, mine are not exactly the same as yours, even though we are both Christians.
ReplyDeleteAs for my "defense" of narcissists, I can only reiterate that I am not defending what they do--at all! I also believe as you do about malignant narcs and sociopaths and psychopaths. I think they are too far gone to ever change or want help.
But lower down, I think there is hope. I talked about tough love--which isn't enabling them or feeling sorry for them. I encourage no contact and always will. I was just saying that a little compassion (without enabling of course) is better than hate. Ignoring them is probably always the best thing for us since it doesn't feed their supply.
I respect your right to feel the way you do, but when push comes to shove, Peep, we really aren't in disagreement about narcs at all--except yes, your religious beliefs are more biblically oriented than mine.
Anyway...I don't want to see this dispute end our friendship, because it has been valuable and inspirational to me. I still enjoy your writing very much.
I care about you Lucky Otter, but I hope you will pray and rethink this one. This world is doing a number to people's minds when it comes to evil. In fact one message of this world is to excuse evil to the point they call evil good and good evil, just like the Bible warned would happen. The actions of narcs is related to WHO they are. Black hearted. Is this to insult them or just to state a reality? I am not sure of your emphasis on lower ranking narcs. We admit coverts and fleas and lesser narcs exist, but most ACON blogs are focusing on the malignants and sociopaths. If there was a conscience to work with, do you think many of us would even be writing like we do about what happened to us
DeleteI agree we have to ignore them but I do believe some of us are here to warn. How many ACON blogs are there? About 25? This is an issue not getting that much coverage. Whose missing compassion? I have written on this very blog, do not get revenge it is against God's will. But this doesn't mean sitting down and going on mental exercises about how kind our narcs really were or that we should feel sympathy for them. Sympathy by the way which was turned on us and allowed us to be abused. I am the person with the kind of personality I do not cut someone off easily not at all.
Tough Love too is a misnomer. I am going to post against it. I believe Tough Love was used by the powers that be, to harden people up and have them close down what the Bible calls "natural affection". Tough love was used to get rich parents to send their kids off to those beat them down and break their will mind control wilderness and training camps and schools. It is a concept I do not agree with. I had people try the tough love thing on me thinking I could control my weight.
Yes our religious beliefs differ, I think I view evil differently. Every human being has to fight good and evil even within themselves but the narcs we are talking about here have become seared and reprobate and shut off the light of conscience within.
I enjoy your writing too and glad my blog has helped you but please rethink these things and analyze how a certain someone could have influenced you, a big name guy who I know has been telling people to "feel sorry for narcs and sociopaths" too for years. Ever hear the phrase "change agent?"
Peep, am I seeing things? Is House of Mirrors back up again????? Halleluiah!
ReplyDeleteYes she has been posting recently. I am glad to see her back.:)
Deletehttp://luckyottershaven.com/2015/05/02/should-we-feel-sorry-for-narcs/
ReplyDeleteAnybody that feels sympathy for narcs probably wasn't exposed to one that took no prisoners. I found out a long time ago that to say they probably are not dealing with a Narc was an extreme boundary jumping claim on my part and needs to be qualified. Like it has been said they exist on a spectrum. But if anyone is familiar with my story they would know that telling me to turn the other cheek (or what ever not bashing them translates to) is crazy. If you/she want to qualify my experience and separate narcs from psychopaths and call my mother a psychopath while reserving the word narcissism for the Donald Trumps of this world. I might be more inclined to agree with her. But my mother recklessly orchestrated a murder and pushed my father to suicide and then took the family estate that her own mother made her promise to pass on to us as some sort of reparations for the nightmare she made for the rest of us live in and gave it to the one person on earth I might be motivated to go out of my way and physically harm is narcissism at a depth that I still can't get my mind around almost 50 years later.
ReplyDeleteI find myself thinking the same thing, that they may have encountered borderlines or coverts but with nugget of conscience with "someone" home to reach out to. Your mother was total evil and given over to it so this whole don't "bash" the narcs thing definitely would not apply. I worry about the websites including the well-known big guy in narcissism whose name I won't write here, who do the "please feel sorry for narcs" gambit. Doesn't the world step aside for them every minute already? All "feeling sorry" for narcs does is make you more open to their abuses. The Bible makes it clear no revenge and DEPART from the wicked, not get a bandage out for their booboos, and cry over them, and coo over them so they can gain strength to go harm again. The malignant narcs and sociopaths of this world mostly already have the sympathy, empathy they want and need. They manipulate for it. Its us who lack it. Yes according to the not-bash formula you would have to be totally silent. The 'don't say anything unless it's nice" school of thought is basically Orwellian when it comes to narcs. Silence and secret-keeping serves their needs. It means no one ever calls them into accountability. I know some would tell me I am bad Christian to have filled an entire blog, with the misdeeds of my family but I figure this verse covers me.
DeleteEphesians 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Just unfollow her and leave it at that; no need to smear her name.
DeleteI didn't agree with her post, but I didn't unfollow her and create a response post.
I don't see anyone's name being smeared.
DeleteBossy pants, my way or the highway anonymous probably doesn't have a blog to post a response. If you do, why are you hiding? Don't tell Peep what to do; it's her blog and her opinion and she can do whatever she wants. There's a little bossy back atcha - you likey?
DeleteI didn't see anyone's name being smeared either, thank you Q. Disagreeing with someone does not mean smearing. Thank you too Lisette. Writing blogs is about responding. Nothing wrong with that.
DeleteFor me it's an understatement to say my mother destroyed our family. When most people hear that phrase they think of all the relationships within. In my case there is literally nothing left. NO antiques passed down, NO family pictures. I have to get permission from my ex wife if we want to bury someone in the cemetery plot we owned since the last century. Look at a newspaper with a graph of the stock market in the crash of 1929 and that's what she did to us.
ReplyDeleteYes your mother was a hurricane, wiping the whole family out. Destroyed to the max. I have nothing and nobody left of the family. Just a few old photos but very few. I know I won't be buried in the family cemetary either [even leaving the family church cements that one for me] and I don;t want to be. Sad you have to ask her for permission. I know mine strip-mined any family life for me. Yes your mother was a force of evil and destruction all the way.
DeleteI don't know if you have figured it out by now, but I am not the most religious person on the block. But the scriptures you post are as relevant today as they were hundreds of years ago. I always enjoy reading them. The Orwellian comment dumbfounds me. It's exactly how my mother indoctrinated herself to the rest of the family and it's what cost us most dearly. Once my mother was acquitted, in her mind it was like she wasn't involved at all. The only reason she got off was that in Texas back then there was not what is now called the "law of parties" on the books. That's where if one guy in a carload of people acting in concert kills someone they are all guilty of murder. Back then it was one body one conviction. To see how my family stuck our heads in the sand before during and after that ordeal is really a study in excusing narcs who commit atrocities. She never slowed down with her aberrant behavior. She didn't kill any one else that we know of but she stepped up her affairs until ...........She always coached me and how to lie to my father to cover her tracks. She didn't have to. I couldn't have kept up with what she was doing if she had given me a program. I think Sociopaths are unsupervised narcissists. AND! Something else you said was a thought provoking statement. About why so many people blog about it. If anyone thinks I feel some sort of notoriety about coming from such insanity you got another thing coming. Over the years it has worn me out. It's wrecked my health and my sanity. Nothing good has come from my mother. I just want to be normal with a normal history and not acting on some crazy bug filled program installed on my hard drive decades ago. When my mother was found not guilty (which is not the same as innocent) in a court of law. It was like she was a bacterial infection that no longer responded to antibiotics. She just ravaged everyone around her. Most people would have kissed the ground under their feet. But not her.
ReplyDeleteThanks Q regarding the scriptures, they do apply here. Many people are taught false versions of "love", and love that is supposed to embrace the unrepentant wicked, it is the kind of stuff that allows the wicked so much of a hold over this world. I always think about how everyone is so concerned about them being loved and worshipped and the scapegoats are tossed to the side.
DeleteYes Orwell who by the way I have written almost everything the man has written was clear on how the dynamics worked. I am sure your mother even convinced herself she was totally innocent. In Texas of today, wouldn't they have convicted her, but yes this was the 60s
I feel sick for you that after she got off scott free even with much of her horrible lifestyle exposed, the rest of the family left you children there to continue being her victims.
Hmm unsupervised narcissists, interesting phrase. They get away with a lot. To be frank, your mother may be the exception to the rule, in actually having the law on her tail. She's a sociopath that "slipped up", there are far more talented ones out there who never get caught.
Yes you had the public thing, where your family name was out there, you were the kid whose mother was up for murder so that has to be hell on earth.
I understand wanting to be normal. I wanted this when I was young and knew something about me was very different even before the weight came. Why did other people's mothers love them and mine hated me so much? I am sure you wish you could have just gone into another life, where your community didn't know about your family. I had the parents who were the "perfect" upstanding citizens with great jobs, that is a different ballgame then you having the wretched would be murderer. The law as a boundary and an antibiotic to stop the infection of evil failed. These sociopaths learn nothing either and yours just escaped death row probably by a sliver, and still went on to abuse and be evil.
Lord help me! My prayers are for the victims. The narcs can all go diddle themselves ;(
ReplyDeleteLord help me too. The world all steps aside for the narcs. I have lived an entire life, where all mercy, compassion, love, kindness and acceptance has been reserved for my mother among the family and none given to me. Why does she need my compassion or tears? She has her fill of it. I am nothing to her. Let's have love for ourselves and not excuse the wicked or play mind games that we weren't a good enough doormat.
DeleteOne person's alleged "bashing" is another person's lived reality.
ReplyDeleteTW
I totally agree TW.
DeleteI guess she was not a victim of a severe smear campaign against her that could have kept her from keeping her job, raising her children, having good relationship with her adult children, and keeping her friends. She was lucky in that regards. Unfortunately, some of us who are feeling great frustration have not been compensated. Her blog is controversial because she stung most ACONs with forgiving the forgetting arguments and shaming us. It is like seeing black people dealing with Uncle Toms or house Negroes telling them that they don't need affirmative action and that racism is not alive and well today.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you felt stung by your friend and that it hurts you. The timing of this article was wrong for you in light of what you went through last month. In addition, I could understand that some ACONs and some people who had a nasty divorce with their narc ex would be tempted to feel sorry for some non-malignant narcs or people who have narc fleas, BPD, narc traits or young adults who are accused of being narcs.
On the other hand, we had a malignant narc or two who ruined our lives that we could not keep our job due to nasty smear campaign that followed us everywhere we worked, we lost all of our old friends, have relatives who reject us, have severe health problems, and other loss that we were never able to recover from. These are the reason why most ACONs could not forgive and forget. Anybody who argued with us obviously did not suffer much loss.
A "narcissistic" man who wrote to the writer of that blog in question might not be a narc at all. He might have narc fleas and/or traits, BPD, and/or PTSD. In addition, narcs usually don't send kind emails to an aspie ACON telling them that they are narcs. It sounds like this man spent time introspecting himself, which narcs usually do not do.
I'm sorry you felt stung and hope you and your fellow blogger will feel comfortable with each other someday.
I think there are different shades of abuse. I know people who had narc parents of lower calibers where they still were included in the family, not ostracized and included in the family. These are people lower down the spectrum who still may have attachement and bit of a soul to be reached. For some of us ACONs everything was stripped away including our health, future careers, and family relationships. Many ACONs who have adult children even had them ripped away by sociopathic narc parents. Some are more fortunate in not having bore the brunt of full sociopathic nardom in full froth. I believe there are people with triats, lower level narcs and borderlines with narc traits, but to be the target of a full scale malignant narc attack life long is a different ball game.
DeleteWhat gets me is ACONs are shamed some more. I know HATE is being discussed over there over and over. Who is hating? I have preached no revenge, and my own LOSS in desiring to have a mother that was capable of love. Sometimes I worry people are misled by false preachers who say it is bad to criticize the wicked or call them to accountability. They call every negative word or reality "HATE". Often people of my religious beliefs are called haters for even admitting evil and sin exist. Most of us with severe sociopathic narc parents already did the FORGIVE AND FORGET gambit. I went back to my parents time and time again and later mother, thinking I was the BAD one, and needed to please her and keep her happy. I was told I was hateful, not nice, too demanding, too outspoken etc. Now when someone says ACONs are haters and bashers on their blogs for expressing the full scope of reality on their blogs about what these kind of people do to others, that concerns me GREATLY.
I believe the powers that be in this world don't want evil discussed too openly or honestly. Perhaps that is why the big name narc guy who tells the world to "feel sorry" for narcissists and sociopaths is so well known. They want to direct conversations. They want victims to not be empowered but to go back to that place of false GUILT every ACON of a severe narc parent are oh so familiar with. While they abused us, called us names, smear campaigned us and gave us looks of disgust, they told us we were the evil ones when they really were. BPDs, those with fleas and covert/lower level narcs are a whole other ballgame then dealing with sociopathic narcs with absolutely no conscience that can't be reached on any human level. When that conscience is shut down they are seared. I have nothing but tears for the human tragedy of evil overcoming a human soul. Thanks for your post anon.
Everyone's situation is different, and everyone's coping mechanisms are different as well. I've seen some of the most amazing bloggers write long burning expose after another, post confrontations and growth pains as if in a blood sport (which they were), then alls the sudden go calm , cool. Sooner rather than later they invariably stop writing the blog, or at least move on from narc abuse topics. Seems like for some, letting go of the fiery , intense pain may be a step in their healing process. The post resonated with many and I think it's a valid post. Helpful even. Someday I'd like to be in that calm place of truly letting go. Probably won't be there till long after my parents are dead, but it is a hope.
ReplyDeleteYes some are in it for a season and some much longer. On my blog this is a multitopic blog, the blog was started to find out what was wrong with me, [after the 400lb weight gain] and I accomplished that. It has become partially an ACON blog, but I am sure will continue posting on a variety of topics and have not given up on the fat issues that started the blog. People will let go when they are ready. Sometimes people can be abused, when they are told to let go or that they are "bad" people for feeling certain emotions. I have my good days where I have forgotten and the pain is receding, and I have my bad ones, and hope with time the good ones increase. I have to admit I tire of everyone being called HATERS. It is used to shut down conversations elsewhere too. I am not a Buddhist, and don't plan to be joining a place of mindful bliss. I am sure there will always be a piece of grief. Today our society demands everyone fits a certain mold and in this is the required shutting down of emotions.
DeleteIt tires me how everyone from the chronically ill to veteran of violent wars to ACONs are told to LET GO, or in other words "quit bothering" us with that "negative stuff". I feel letting go is done on people's own time. I am done being someone everyone else wants me to be and done being told what to feel and that my feelings are wrong. I had that long enough from the narcs. I worry that the solutions today offered for people is this fuzzy wussy stuff, "don't hate man", well I still am not going to hug the vampires as I said, before-[smakintosh's saying] but I will get away from them. Is that hating someone or just being wise? Some of these folks would call someone a hater for saying Adolf Hiter is in hell. I am not a Buddhist or a New Ager who thinks wicked people are going to share heaven with everyone else.
I couldn't really get through Lucky Otter's article, too preachy. And I tend to think there's an agenda behind it. Funny, she recently linked my post "Narcissists Are Batshit Crazy," she even stole the image I used and wanted to take the whole article, but she couldn't due to the fact that the copy paste is disabled. Her and a reader were trying to figure out another way to steal it. Seems this woman has no conception of boundaries. Based on her behavior, I don't trust her. Actually never heard of her before I saw hits from her blog. Anyway, it seems pretty hypocritical to be on a narcissist forgiveness campaign when just a few weeks ago she was happy to link an article calling narcissists batshit crazy.
ReplyDeleteLO stole my article, including the image, the day I posted it. She was forced to provide a link and only post a short paragraph because the copy paste is disabled. If it wasn't disabled, she would have stolen my entire article without my permission the same day I posted it. That's obnoxious.
DeleteI've skimmed through her blog and she seems to be preoccupied with page views and popularity. I see that her blog is monetized so one has to question her motives. Especially, ESPECIALLY when she climbs into bed with a malignant narc and writes articles about him to up her traffic. Then she goes on to brag about how her articles increased hits to his website and increased his book sales. Huge red flag! Someone who is apparently a victim of narc abuse cozying up to someone who advertises himself as a liar, manipulator, predator, narcissists... for the sake of getting traffic to her blog?? Pretty shady if you ask me.
I also believe her latest article about "stop bashing narcissists" is some kind of attention seeking publicity stunt. I have to wonder what she's going to write about now that she's no longer "bashing" narcs. She also had a post about her quitting blogging and at the end she said: APRIL FOOLS. Seems there's nothing she won't do to get attention.
As for her "stop bashing narcissists" article; her arguments are laughable. She's comparing apples to oranges. Schizophrenics don't deliberately go out of their way to harm others so why the comparison? She states narcissists are predators and they just can't help themselves. I guess that makes it okay. Based on that thread of logic, serial killers, pedophiles and rapists should all get a free pass because they too are predators and just can't help themselves. WRONG. Narcissism cannot be used as a defense in a court of law because narcissists know exactly what they are doing. Think of the serial killer who carefully plots each murder and meticulously disposes of the body, or the pedophile who grooms the child for months before he makes his move. That's someone who is very much in control. That's not uncontrollable predation; it's premeditated violence. Also the abuse excuse doesn't fly in my book, since the narcs I know were spoiled rotten brats. That's how they learned to demand. As children they figured out how to control mommy and daddy and always get their way and they expect the same response from the rest of the world. Narcissists are socially dangerous and destructive, and their behavior is premeditated - that's why they should be avoided. But hey, if what's her face is comfortable swimming with the sharks that says a lot more about her than the people who loath them and want to avoid them.
Sorry about your article, thanks for telling me. The very day too you posted it wow. I know some do focus on page views and popularity. Monetized is to make money via ads and more. I don't think blogs make very much, and I worry about anyone who thinks a blog will bring in real money unless they become/or are a big name.
DeleteI was surprised and disappointed by the big name malignant narc getting so promoted on her blog. Webwide there are warnings about that man even from FIVE or more years ago. That is not someone you want your blog associated with and one reason I cut ties, is I can't have this blog associated with falsehoods about narcissism or evil. I worry too she may be bringing him back on but he was on a lot. There I gave some Aspie, benefit of the doubt thinking she just did not realize his reputation.
It is a huge red flag to me too.
Any victim would be petrified of a guy who made a movie where he directly calls himself a sociopath. We would know to stay FAR AWAY. I knew it YEARS ago when reading his website and he admits he is a narc and sociopath. Narcs and sociopaths ally with one another.
I wonder too about the "stop bashing narcissists" too. I will say this I have always believed the big name narcissist was used by the powers that be, and well you can see where I am going with this to divert real talk about narcissism and the nature of evil itself. They always divert the conversation saying the victims are "too angry" and "bad" and the narcissists are "misunderstood" and treated "badly". Ever hear of neurolinguistic programming and Delphi techniques?The last thing they want is an open and real discussion of evil. The narcs and sociopaths that control this world don't want dissension among the beaten down scapegoated rank and file. I have met others like LO elsewhere on line. EVERY and I mean EVERY conservation on every huge ACON board [some small ones and bloggers and videographers are ok] is diverted this way, DEFEND THE NARCS and TELL THE VICTIMS TO SHUT UP, they are too NEGATIVE. I have seen these techniques used to silence people talking about any items of controversy. No one wants to be seen as "negative", or "politically incorrect". Most of the crowd will get back in line. Many believe false websites, that tell people to feel sorry for the narcs. The narcs themselves want the narcissistic supply. Every "complaining" ACON has now been pointed to as "the problem" and this is what happened to us in our families too wasn't it?
continuing...
DeleteSorry but the real negative ones were those who abused us in the first place.
She wrote she is changing her blog, which is her right but I find it all very confusing. I am fine with people changing blogs and realize mine even straddles many topics including obesity but the whole you are all a bunch of "narc bashers" tone bothers me. This is the kind of thing I got from a long line of flying monkeys and enablers who pointed me as being the "hateful" one because I walked away or stood up for myself and was not standing there and taking abuse with a "positive" smile on my face. One thing I have posted about on this blog multiple times is how the false positivity is used as a club. Those narcs want smiles on everyone's faces, how dare you complain!
Her desire to "understand people with NPD" while throwing ACONs under the bus, even though she says she emphasizes with them concerns me. Yes schizophrenics are apples and oranges, that part confused me. Making excuses and trying to "understand" predators, worries me. The bible says DEPART from the WICKED, don't make them a cup of tea and try to understand their black hearts.
I am sickened by they "just can't help themselves" logic, or they are all to be forgiven because they are three years old inside and never grew up. They made the decision to choose evil.
You are right this is true, all the serial killers would be put in mental hospitals, and ruled insane and not jailed for life or put on death row, if this logic was true. Sociopaths and pedophiles etc, are very calculated.
Most narcs and a lot of sociopaths though maybe not all were GCS. Some have hideous abuse but they ALL decide to become like their abusers in choosing to be evil.
I agree about those who want to swim with sharks. I hope she stays away from you know who for her own sake.
Amen, Peep! I get the feeling she's a little brain washed. Anyway, I have no sympathy for holier than thous who try to shame away anger. Anger is fear? Pffft. Who made that up? Anger is anger. And it's only an emotion. But I guess repressing it and calling it fear makes those who are afraid of their own anger feel superior to openly angry people. Ironic how that works. Yes, there's something sinister going on trying to point the finger at the victims. Makes me even angrier - LOL - and makes me want to scream it from the rooftops. I think narcissists sympathizers deserve a special place in hell.
DeleteRemember this article Lissette? It applies to this situation:
Deletehttp://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2014/09/positive-thinking-tyranny-quote.html
"The toxic, narcissist or sociopath in a narcissist family system or other often will suppress victims of abuse telling the group you are a "complainer", or a "trouble-maker", or "negative". This is one insidious thing about scapegoating, and here they can silence your protests against your treatment quite a bit among too many who don't see through their manipulations. This works because in doing so, as you continue to stand up for yourself, it is just written off as another "complaint". I knew even with my family I had to go NC. Short of a lobotomy freezing and erasing every memory or negative emotion, why take the route of smiling compliance? "
There is such a thing as righteous anger. False Christianity teaches enable the evil, hug the vampires and bend over backwards for the wicked. There are lot of people who tell people to repress all emotions now. Thanks for agreeing with me that there is something sinister about pointing to the victims. It upsets me too and angers me. The whole world praises and seeks to make way for the narcissists. Some of us aren't on that path.
Also, one thing I noticed about Lucky Otter's article is a comparison between narcissists and schizophrenics. Such an irresponsible comparison. Schizophrenics are mentally ill - they are out of touch with reality and therefore, at times, don't know right from wrong. Narcissists have a personality disorder - they know right from wrong, but choose to do wrong anyway, at least when they can get away with it. This covert behavior points to their awareness of reality. I believe they are crazy in other ways and they abuse their minds, but it is not an organic mental illness like schizophrenia - it's a disorder based on choice.
ReplyDeleteI didnt agree with that comparison either but figured she may not be familiar with schizophrenia. I am, they are totally out of touch with reality and are not lucid. A schizophrenic isn't manipulative and isn't plotting and planning. I believe the narcs choose too.
DeleteWhen you bear the brunt of a narcissist in full bloom it is hard enough to accept it as reality. But It's a lot easier to make excuses when you see other people catch it with both barrels. My wife once told me that my mom only seems bad because she was MY mom. But she won't even allow me to even talk about my childhood in front of her own kids.
ReplyDeleteI think normal people even close one's to you can't even conceive of what it was like. Some of the good ones try. It is hard to even describe the reality and with the fog and gaslighting I know I struggled to understand what was going on. I think kids should be warned of these people but when it is age appropriate just so they are not victimized by a living narc [grandmother etc] one day.
DeleteYeah Lissette, If my mother didn't know she was putting everyone through a wood chipper. She wouldn't have gone to such lengths to lie and hide it and divert other peoples attention away from what she was doing. My mother was like a slot machine that never paid off.
ReplyDeleteHere in the West, the Lord's redeemed do not suffer persecution... oh wait a minute, forgot about the narc petty-pharos.
ReplyDeletePersecution does come from a lot of narcs. They are the one's busy doing it.
DeleteIt's hard for me to give a lot of grief to people who lean on the material of others. But I CAN say until I had my (for brevity's sake stroke) I wrote just about every word on my blog). But that all stopped when My health issues cropped up. I am always careful to not dog people for something I have had to resort to.
ReplyDeleteQ I think its okay to quote others, as long as you credit. I certainly quote the work of others and memes that other's created. I know my health sometimes makes my posts a bit shorter.
DeleteQ, if you referring to my comments, and I believe you are. I don't give grief to people who lean on the material of others. I get pissed off at people who take what's mine without asking, sometimes on the same day I post. I've been labelled a bully for asking for a simple credit. The offenders continued to steal and pass my work off as their own. If it happened to you, you might have a different view of the situation.
DeleteI just took my two children to see the Disney Nature movie "Monkey Kingdom." This movie shed some light on social narcissism be it in a community or family.
ReplyDeleteLet me explain. The movie narrator is Tina Fey who wrote "Mean Girls". That's one clue. The movie focuses on a lone monkey named Maya, who is a low-cast member of the monkey community. As I watched on, I couldn't help but see parallels to ACONS as I watched Maya struggle everyday for food and daily comforts. As a low-cast monkey, Maya was not allowed to sit in the higher branches of majestic fig tree, where the warmth of the sun is and the sweeter, ripe figs are. Instead, she sat on the cold, shadowed branches at the bottom, with hard figs. Then there were "The Sisters" a.k.a. Narcs/mean girls, whose children would play rough with Maya and she had to take it. They got to sit at the top branches where the warmth of the sun was and the sweetest figs. The sisters (3 of them) had support of male monkey partners, and even nanny's. Their monkey husbands were the alpha's of the group. It was hard to watch Maya shiver on the low branches, and have to leave the monkey community into the outter areas to get food, which presented a lot of dangers from preditors. When Maya had a baby son, Kip, her love and resilience was all for him. The sisters then attacked Maya and stole Kip. Maya spent the entire day looking for her baby. After the sisters lost interest, they left Kip alone to fend for himself until Maya found him.
Things turn around for Maya in the end. I don't want to share the ending. But I will say this; when challenges arrive, Maya was up for the challenge due to her keen survival skills for the bad treatment that she received while "The Sisters" were humbled and had no capacity to survive without the help of the monkey community.
I strongly recommend this movie as there are numerous parallels to the ACON life. We all live sociably hard lives due to our rank within our own families that seem to spill out into other areas of our live via slander campaign and/or the personification of the scapegoat role. During Monsoon season, the higher rank monkeys took refuge under castle rock as Maya and baby Kip sat in terential rain, even though there was plenty of room for Maya and Kip. It was all so familiar.
I love nature shows and want to see this movie. I have seen nature shows where they showed the rank and file, and the ALPHAS. I don't believe in evolution, but I sometimes do think human society is run along those lines, why so much emphasis on STATUS? We have alpha males, etc.
DeleteI am glad things turn around for Maya in the end. Glad they gave the movie a happier ending but find myself thinking does that always happen? Some of the evolutionists say empathy developed in the human race for a survival mechanism. Humans are different from animals. Maybe someone would point out the human race is de-evolving as empathy becomes less common? Thanks for telling me about that movie, I do want to see it.
Things turn around for Maya in the end. I don't want to share the ending. But I will say this; when challenges arrive, Maya was up for the challenge due to her keen survival skills for the bad treatment that she received while "The Sisters" were humbled and had no capacity to survive without the help of the monkey community.
I strongly recommend this movie as there are numerous parallels to the ACON life. We all live sociably hard lives due to our rank within our own families that seem to spill out into other areas of our live via slander campaign and/or the personification of the scapegoat role. During Monsoon season, the higher rank monkeys took refuge under castle rock as Maya and baby Kip sat in terential rain, even though there was plenty of room for Maya and Kip. It was all so familiar.
"The Sisters" were humbled and had no capacity to survive without the help of the monkey community."
DeleteI think my sister would go insane, and I mean that literally, if she was faced with my current life circumstances. In fact, I was thinking about that the other day. What if our situations were reversed? She wouldn't make it. I believe the N parents understand that she is not capable of self-survival and that's why they have given her every financial and material comfort she could ever need and then some... that, and the fact she feeds their egos and protects their lies. She's set for life. Meanwhile, when she got power of attorney over my dad, she went in and shattered the only financially security I had. She cleaned out an emergency line of credit, I had maintained for over a decade. It's not enough that she gets it all, she has to make sure I have nothing, I hope one day she is humbled.
I believe in divine creation, that we were made in the image of God. Not to say that evolutionary aspects were not apart of creation. I believe creation involved the evolution process on some level. What that is exactly, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to learn what specifically about Peep, Ollie Matthews, Anna V, Lizette, Smakintosh, you and me qualifies us as target/scapegoat? What made Maya a target? She was not defective in any way. Actually, just the opposite. So how and why do some become The Sisters and some low-cast? Who makes up these rules? If we can pinpoint how and why this happens in our families and in our home, work and church communities, then maybe we can learn to transcend and not become a target in the first place. This is valuable insight that can save my children from this hellish experience; can save the hundreds of kids who are bullied to death. Maybe we should look to the monkey kingdom to glean insight?
I agree we are made in the image of God too. It is interesting to ask why were we made scapegoats. Smakintosh has done videos I agree with which say the evil narcissists choose the person willing to live according to their consicence. I believe they choose those who do not conform in some way. I was marked as the scapegoat early on I think for being Aspie and "too sensitive". I realize mine always have used my feeling against me. In my case there was the health stuff too, but I see them as helping to ruin and destroy my health. One word of caution here, being like a narc probably keeps the abuse away but then the danger is becoming like them. I am not sure what the answer is. What gets me is I did fight back and still got the stuffing kicked out of me. Every word I said meant nothing to my narcs. With kids and bullies, make sure you always have their back, I know bullies do sniff out in my own experiences those who know their parents and family consider them an "annoyance" and think they deserve the beating and abuse of a bully.
DeleteI don't hug narcs, they won't even recognize a kind gesture anyway, but will find a way to exploit it. And anyways, it is not even conducive to healing. When I say I hate my mother, a lot of passion goes with it, and that needs to happen. My MN mother was one hell of an engulfing sociopath. To pull away required me to go into some deep hatred and authenticity about how I really felt. I really do have parts missing. I overrode her cruelty with "how nice she was". Its like I am deaf sometimes. I went and had my hearing checked, its fine but I still can't hear people. My brain selects what it wants to hear. Or understand.
ReplyDeleteSo in order to pull away from that and achieve some healing, I will need anger and hatred. It burns and cleanses. Even Jesus did that.
I have to admit I got worried with the admiration of the ideas of a certain big name narcissist/self avowed sociopath, and her promotion of him. This for me was the first red flag. I thought she meant well, but was kind of frightened for her and told her so [publically on her blog] I was uncomfortable with his visits there too. I will not post his name because it is obvious the man googles himself to see whose talking about him online. I don't mind articles being quoted but they should all have credits or links with them. I try to credit all pictures to the original blog unless they have one stamped on it or is a meme with a credit of a name on it. It confuses me too, where she linked to your article, but had the narcissist forgiveness articles too. I know there are those blogs and websites out there including the big name man, who preach forgive and understand the narcs.
ReplyDeleteHave read that these human reptiles make up about four percent of our population. Seriously question that statistic, cannot help but to suspect the number is somewhat higher.
ReplyDeletefor the record... lucky otter did not steal your post or anyone's post, nor was she "forced" to provide a link back to your post... on Wordpress it is considered common courtesy to "reblog" someone's post that you find interesting/informative etc. and to provide a link back to the original blog/post /author so that others may click on it and read the complete blog/post themselves... your settings had absolutely nothing to do with her only posting a paragraph... when you hit the reblog button, only a paragraph appears in your own blog along with the links back to the original blog of origin ... it is considered a nice thing to do for another blogger to repost one of their articles , she meant no harm, and certainly did NOT steal anything from you, nor was she forced to provide a link ( it's automatically provided ) she meant it to be that she enjoyed your post, thought it was important and wanted to share your writing with others... that's the difference between wordpress and Blogger... wordpress folks share and reblog (repost) while it is not a common occurrence here on Blogger, she was trying to give your blog more traffic and new readers and give you some free promotion of your blog, your blog was obviously well written and your post obviously had great value to others, no worries, I know she won't do that again for anyone on Blogger because of the backlash she got for trying to help your blog along. everyone is so quick to judge and condemn without question, everyone is so quick to condemn without knowing the reasons why .... it's sad really how people get bashed over a difference of opinion .
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteGive my blog new readers? More traffic? And FREE promotion? I got about 15 hits from her site, if that. I average 2400 page views a day and that's without creating any drama. I don't make any money off my blog. It makes no difference to me who does or does not read it. But by you thinking the Otter so graciously gave me FREE promotion, I can see where your head is at. I don't have a problem with people linking to my blog, but the discussion on the post in question about how to get around the copy paste issue and post the whole thing is what bothered me. Truth is, it's Otter who's out for FREE promotion on that click bait she calls a blog. She might have even made .8 cents from me alone through her recent "controversial" publicity stunt. Maybe she can add up all her nickels and go buy herself some more Kleenex to cry into.
DeleteIsn't the etiquette, to post a paragraph and not a whole article and link back? Whose going to go look at the other blog if the whole article is there even with a link on it? I can see what Lisette is saying with that. You are not supposed to post the WHOLE thing but a quote or paragraph. That is how I understand it. Blogs don't make money. I hope she doesn't see a blog as her ticket out.
DeleteIs .08 cents the going rate for someones soul? That's what otter thinks her own is worth,
DeleteYes I agree. Did you see the latest? Supposedly we all HATE NARCS.
Delete"These ACONs usually underwent the worst abuse as children, or had two narcissistic parents instead of just one. Having abusive parents seems to instill the greatest anger in victims–more so than having been with an abusive spouse–and this anger isn’t easily let go of. This group has a warrior mentality: to them, ALL narcissists are evil, bad seeds, or demonic, and have no hope whatsoever of recovery or healing. They may acknowledge a continuum or spectrum among narcissists, but it’s not important to them. A narc is a narc is a narc, and they are all considered impervious to change and anything they do is suspect. Some ACONs of this type are ultra-religious and believe all narcissists are seared souls destined for hell."
I always admitted the existence of the coverts and lesser narcs but made it clear I was dealing with the malignants and socipaths.
If she wants to have a blog for the "healing of narcs", then it's her right, but it's not a path I'm interested in or agree with. I hate to tell her this but even the coverts and lessers aren't seeking therapy in most cases, they aren't going to be googling their problems or seeking "recovery". At most she will end up with some ACONs struggling with fleas and to them I believe such messages will do far more harm then good.
It is her smear campaign against ACONs who expressed their feelings and frustrations with their lives after they left home and their PTSD. I don't like her ways of categorizing some ACONs as some textbook writers and confusing 90% of the world populations about covert NPD and their victims. It is an example of narcs' and their enablers' smear campaign against their victims that made themselves look good and their victims look unstable and crazy. Hopefully, people could see why victims of narcissistic abuse lost in court cases (child custody, assets after no-fault divorce, restraining orders, etc), lost their support system consisting of relatives and friends, their jobs, and livelihood. I hope somebody will give a shout out and show what smear campaign looks like and why victims of narcissistic abuse kept on losing and being rejected by society.
DeleteI promised not to post, but I need to say two things about the "stolen article" matter.
ReplyDelete1. The link to the article has been removed.
2. It wasn't stealing. I wrote an intro (a nice one) and provided a LINK. To see your article, a reader would have had to click on the LINK. Providing a link is not stealing! But I went ahead and removed it anyway since it became such a huge issue.
On WP we reblog each other's articles all the time. No one objects to this. It may have been bad form to do this on the day it was posted, and if so I apologize for that.
That is all I have to say.
Whatever Otter. I don't want to be associated with you. Funny how you turned your focus to such a small matter and made it a HUGE issue. I initially ignored it. It happens all the time. But then it became about the bigger picture - you and your integrity was called into question, so I brought it up. It's about your all around questionable behavior and your narc sympathy perspective. The post issue was a blip of a red flag - that's all. If I thought you were reasonable, or you had a shred of integrity, I would have continued to ignore it, or contacted you directly, but you are seriously one deluded trouble maker. I've never had issue with WP. This is not a Blogger vs WP thing. This about a fraud who's blogging about narc abuse while stroking the ego of a psychopath. You just don't seem to get it. And I, and everyone else, is fed up with you. It's very evident you are struggling with your limitations.
DeleteI wonder why the focus on that too, it was just something brought up. Most just do a small quote or paragraph and not a whole article.
DeleteThere is lack of insight as to why it may trouble people when someone says they are an ACON but identifies more fully with the narcissists.
I am tired of the professional narcissist/psychopath who shall not be named here being promoted everywhere. Maybe he got bored with message boards and wanted to try the blogger world out. I wonder if he has people working for him online? It is just a thought.
You know what those narcs are like. They see people as chess pieces to play with. So there's no doubt in my mind that he's a provocateur. If Otter is his puppet, well then, kudos to him for finding himself a live one. These PDs are predators; they can spot easy prey. He tells someone to do this or that, and sits back and watches from the sideline as the drama unfolds. I hate to give the creep too much credit, but the truth is there are some very stupid malleable people online - lots of willing puppets for a psychopath to play with. Most of us won't even mention his name. But hey, there is some truth to his gobbledygook. He has to show a smidgen of credibility otherwise everyone would dismiss him as a nut job. He's a psychopath - as far as I'm concerned he has no credibility.
DeleteThat's true someone like that could find people to just manipulate and sit back and watch the drama. Sadly I over the years I have seen a lot of websites where this guy has had a presence either actual or by proxy--willing or manipulated. Sure his books and writings have some truths but you are right him being a psychopath strips all credibility away.
Deleteyou know, I didn't come to the blog to argue or get into a peeing contest with any of you, I came to this blog because I am just learning about Narcs and Acons, prior to reading Otters blog I had no frickin clue what a narc was or an acon for that matter, she had links to Peeps Blog ( I've been a blogger here for over 5 years) ... I started reading on her many different topics, I still read them, I got off on the wrong foot with Peep when I blasted her for a post.... it was vulgar and I was wrong, but was grief stricken when I wrote it, still no excuse and I have sincerely apologized, it was both rude and ignorant of me,
ReplyDeleteHaving said that , I seldom comment ( I think I left one other when Peep was talking about cold therapy,) I logged in as anonymous and basically stated I thought it wasn't a good idea (politely) I seldom comment or ask questions because some of you who frequent Peeps blog seem quite hostile and combative, if I say or ask the wrong thing you automatically switch to kill mode so I read the information and seek answers from a less hostile crowd.
as for your 2400 views you get each day.. good for you, you're obviously blogging very well, it was a simple common courtesy and I simply pointed that out, and again you jumped down my throat , and what does money have to do with a reblog? nothing, nor were you or anyone used as "click bait" again... the hostility is unreal!
Anyway... my Dear Peep, I have never meant you or any of your blogger buddies harm, I have learned a great deal about Narcs and Acons from you through your site , but as I said I am too dang scared to ask you a question for fear that your posse will lynch me , so I must say good bye and find another source for learning and a safe space to ask questions.
I wish you all the best Peep , honestly and sincerely.
Butch
Come on Butch, you are not afraid of "my posse", these are just fellow supportive ACON, you are the guy who told me off for being against assisted suicide, without hesitation, okay I am glad you explained why you were so upset. You are not the fearful sort from what I can tell.
DeleteI want to ask you a question, can you see why ACONs may be upset at a narc sympathizing position? Otter will have to make a decision to either be a "heal from narcissism" [which I think is impossible for all but the mild ones who still have consciences--non malignants] and BPD blog, or be an ACON blog, deciding to speak out for the victims of narcs and sociopaths, she can't be both. This will be her decision, but why are you afraid of people who disagree? Who has lynched anyone? Annoyance over reprint of articles? That is enough to send you scurrying when you ripped me a new one--[hey you ever wonder why a woman with several chronic diseases isn't for the euthanasia crowd talking me into that poison? I could travel to Oregon now and get a doctor to dish me up a cocktail] I have empathy for your position watching suffering of a loved one even if I disagree with it and think the medicos need to work on alleviating pain rather then dispatching everyone as soon as possible. All the best to you too.
I'm glad I have online friends who stand up for me.
DeleteI got news for you Pat. If you didn't have a clue about narcissism before you visited the otter. You still don't. Listening to her half baked theories on NPD is like listening to a potted plant discuss what motivates four legged animals to get up and walk outside. For the record I have respected her wishes for us to stay off her blog. You come over here looking for a dust up, a dust up is what you get.
DeleteI worry too about what people will think reading about narcissism at her blog. I took abuse for years thinking I could REACH my narcs. I won't be posting any comments on her blog either. Yes Butch, rethink your stance there. How many people are told go forgive and hug narcs and then get re-abused. It's the same as people telling abused women to go back to their abusers.
Delete"I came to this blog because I am just learning about Narcs and Acons, prior to reading Otters blog I had no frickin clue what a narc was or an acon for that matter, she had links to Peeps Blog ( I've been a blogger here for over 5 years) ... I started reading on her many different topics..."
ReplyDeleteThen stay out of it, Butch. Who are you to take a stand either way? Get a grip, and stop projecting your hostility onto me. You're clearly looking for a fight and you got one. Stop whining. We don't need to hear your 10 cent criticism. And frankly, with a name like "Butch," I can't figure out if you're a manly woman or a womanly man. Please identify your gender. If you are a man then I am sorry that you are so effeminate that you have to resort to "butching" yourself up - it can't be easy for you.
Hi Peep and greetings as well to The Best Bloggers/Commenters on the issue of MNs and Cluster Fs, I mean, Cluster Bs anywhere on-line.
ReplyDeleteQuite the gathering here at Peep's establishment lately; lot's to take in. Great posts from you, Peep, and so many good comments from the 'eyes wide open' veterans in this war on MNs and their sycophants. All the experience and intelligent opinion I have gleaned from honest bloggers and commenters has one main message for me:
Insidious snakes in the grass, MNs, are relentless!
Absolutely no point to forgiveness or trying to get along with the MN treacherous freaks because they are always, at a minimum, even on their best day, duplicitous. They are, at all times, deviously planning the next destructive move, including and especially, in the very moment you're in front of them hoping for some kind of truce (forgiveness/excusing) for their past deeds, mistakenly assuming you're all 'getting along'. Kumbaya! HA! Not with MNs; EVER.
I admire the people who have told their stories and expressed their rage and outrage on their blogs. There are many of you whose lives you've shared make mine look like a walk in the freaking park by comparison. The degree to which your MNs abused matters greatly, especially as a testament to the clarity in your writing. I've been sorting out a way forward after being singled-out for physical and psychological abuse in my own FOO. I've luckily found bloggers and commenters who can, Spell. It. Out. I wish I had one ounce of the wisdom, strength and tenacity of Peep, q, Lisette, TW, and others. I was a mental/emotional contortionist, ready to seek meds for depression and anxiety before I read the welcoming brilliance and warnings from these bloggers who have lived it and posted their experiences for all to see. Being able to relate to someone who can describe the impossible traps that MNs set has been profound for me and for my resolution to protect my own life from here on out. (I still can't believe how many years I willingly placed my head on the chopping block, baring my neck for the well-honed axes of MNs... Humiliating thought.)
Those who have chosen to undermine the character of bloggers in the fight against the sickening need of MNs to ruin lives, are pathetically screechy and wrong. Their arguments are futile and frankly, display a horrifying insensitivity that we're all familiar with and have come to expect when we speak out against MNs. How dare anyone interfere with the lessons these bloggers share as we try to repair our lives as best we can, and attempt to develop some kind of self-preservation moving forward?!! The afore-mentioned bloggers' writings pulled my life out of the fire. They told me to get out and stay out of the scorched (earth) remains. They are way out in front of me, pulling no punches. Those who believe, in their version of reality that they actually know better, have certainly already lost in this battle of wits. The crap storm here interested me in that I got to observe these solid characters who steadfastly erect their boundaries regarding NEVER excusing the sordid ruthlessness of MNs. MN defenders and apologists shouldn't even be in this arena because they don't know what they're talking about; they lost in this fight for sure... And badly. Their MNs would be so disappointed/infuriated in/with them for their lousy, ham-handed attempts to protect them from MN injury... lol.
PS 'The smartest people in the room' here are so much more adept than so-called "therapists". The best therapy for me began when I read your blogs. Finally, acceptance and validation. (I'll be doing the work of sorting through the wreckage for sometime to come.) You should all charge $175 an hour! -- Lora