I know this comment may not be relevant to your excellent and true quote you have posted here, my apologies. But I'm curious if you or any of your readers see any narcissistic family dynamics with the recent passing of Carrie Fisher.
My observation was that she was an ACON and family scapegoat. This would explain her no contact from her mother, the late Debbie Reynolds, for 10 years when she was in her twenties/thirties. This would exclaim her dependence on drugs and possibly, her bi-polar. We know that narcissistic abuse causes PTSD, which mimics or can lead to high anxiety, paranoia from gaslighting, suicidal tendencies and mental illness.
In doing research the last couple of days, I read that her mother felt the need to express that someone "always had to take care of Carrie," which is a form of infantizing an adult, which is a form of mental/emotional covert abuse. Even when she tried to get pregnant the second time, and did, by the ever wandering, Eddie Fisher, she did so "that Carrie would have someone to take care of her" even though Carrie was the older sibling.
The book and movie Postcards from the Edge is also based on their troubled relationship. I find it interesting how young Carrie was when she passed at just 60 years old. Her career as a writer and actor was hot, especially with the upcoming HBO Bright Lights and new Star Wars movies. The ACONS/Scapegoats seem to die young, or become ill, while the narcissist grows ripe into old age.
It's even interesting that Debbie Reynolds passed away one day after Carrie. Most will observe that as a mother's blind and loving devotion to her daughter. But to the keen observer, who knows the history between these two, who knows about narcissistic abuse, may have a different take. Maybe Debbie couldn't take that Carrie was getting so much press attention from all over the world, and like in life, wanted to upstage her dead daughter by her own death. I know this sounds horrible to utter out loud let alone write here, but we know the signs, and I see them here.
Just curious if others are making these same connections or is it just me.
I watched Wishful Drinking on HBO Demand a couple of months ago. She was brilliant, so funny and captivating in this one woman show about her crazy life and all her hollywood connections.
I think Carrie Fisher could have been an ACON too but this time with an engulfer on the borderline personality wing. I read the book years and years ago and it seemed like drama was big. Yes she went no contact didn't she? She did die very young. I see the articles blaming her substance abuse, but that is more of a symptom of the abuse she went through. I find it weird the mother died only a day later too. Wanting the attention subconsciously, such an engulfer, she had to follow her daughter into the afterworld?
That's an interesting observation. Yes, I read about Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds on the news for the past two weeks, and sort of wondered why Carrie died so young and her mother died a day later. I think Debbie and her first husband, Eddie Fisher, were probably narc parents but they were not malignant narc parents like the ones Peep and I have. If Debbie was a malignant narc parent, Carrie would have gone NC or spent less time with her as Angelina Jolie does with her father, John Voight.
Debbie probably realized that her daughter was revered and well-loved as Princess Leia, and that she is an icon. Maybe she felt alone and stressed out when she planned Carrie's funeral. Because of posts in social media and in the news, Debbie probably felt overwhelmed and want to join Carrie. She will be forever remember as a mother who joined her daughter in heaven one day after her daughter died. Malignant narc mothers or father would not be as convincing as mild narc parents. Debbie established her relationship for over 20 years, years after Carrie published "Postcards from the Edge" and had a movie made on her book. Eddie Fisher never made an effort with Carrie or his son, Todd Fisher, so his story would have been off if he ever claim that he wants to join Todd or Carrie in heaven.
Yes, Debbie sounds like she had been a narc mother but she was not a malignant narc mother. It was sad that Carrie took drugs, aged quickly, and she had severe PTSD, at the same time thinking she has bipolar disorder. Since her bipolar disorder was not genetically based, we could tell that she was a victim of narcissistic and gaslighting abuse, revictimization, and invalidation. :(
She saw herself as attached to Carrie. I have noticed these differences between the "ignorers" and the "engulfers" Ignorers want us destroyed and never bond, and while both kinds can be malignant sociopaths, engulfers will claim "love" and "care" but it is the destructive kind that really is not.
Good points taken. Maybe Debbie was more the self-involved type and maybe not the malignant type of Nmother. I just saw a lot of parallels and wanted to inquire with Peep and friends, you included.
Peep did a great post on Tiffany Sedaris, and I think there are true tell-tale signs of others as well. Nancy Motes, Julia Robert's half-sister; they shared a mother, comes immediately to mind as well. She, in my opinion, was a family scapegoat and was in enormous emotional and spiritual pain at the time she committed suicide.
Another who comes to mind is Mariah Carey. Her ex-husband, Tony Mattola, admitted to covertly abusing Carey in their marriage back in the 90's. He had her followed and was known to gas light her as well. He also made her tour non-stop and (initially) squashed any attempts at her creative song writing and collaborations with hip-hop/rap artists. He wanted her to sing more "Hero" songs, which MC hated. As a result of his abuse, she became paranoid for a time, and had a mental/emotional breakdown in early 2,000's.
These are just my observations. Narc abuse has patterns and parallels.
I think there is a difference too between the "actress" borderline personality narcs, "drama queen" types [who else is attracted into acting and cold stone sociopathic no emotions narcs who may wear masks but desire no bonding with the chose scapegoat. In some ways the ones who seek bonding, "the engulfers" can put a thicker fog around their victims. Ie they believe their mother's love them but will run for the hills not even knowing why or escape into drugs and alcohol while other scapegoats will feel the burning hate and will be objects of derision from the entire family pretty early on like Tiffany Sedaris 'I never liked you people". A cold stone sociopath would never drop dead the day after a daughter's death though they may go rake up some narc supply over being the grieving mother. In my case, despite some of my mother's lies, it was pretty well known I was hated by my mother among the family the problem is she got them to believe I deserved it.
Maybe there are some feelings involved for the narc mother who drops dead a day after a daughter's deat but it doesn't mean she wasn't any less destructive.
Nancy Motes was the impoverished "throw-away" scapegoat of Julia Roberts family.
The engulfers are the narc mothers who say they love you, and want you around. They hug to strangle, best metaphor I can come up with. They may even believe they "love" their children but their selfishness and drama seeking destroy them.
The ignorers, hate us, and while they may wear masks to appear nice to others, they have no illusions about that hatred. We are just tools for them to abuse and trash cans to types like tht.
Hi Peep,
ReplyDeleteI know this comment may not be relevant to your excellent and true quote you have posted here, my apologies. But I'm curious if you or any of your readers see any narcissistic family dynamics with the recent passing of Carrie Fisher.
My observation was that she was an ACON and family scapegoat. This would explain her no contact from her mother, the late Debbie Reynolds, for 10 years when she was in her twenties/thirties. This would exclaim her dependence on drugs and possibly, her bi-polar. We know that narcissistic abuse causes PTSD, which mimics or can lead to high anxiety, paranoia from gaslighting, suicidal tendencies and mental illness.
In doing research the last couple of days, I read that her mother felt the need to express that someone "always had to take care of Carrie," which is a form of infantizing an adult, which is a form of mental/emotional covert abuse. Even when she tried to get pregnant the second time, and did, by the ever wandering, Eddie Fisher, she did so "that Carrie would have someone to take care of her" even though Carrie was the older sibling.
The book and movie Postcards from the Edge is also based on their troubled relationship. I find it interesting how young Carrie was when she passed at just 60 years old. Her career as a writer and actor was hot, especially with the upcoming HBO Bright Lights and new Star Wars movies. The ACONS/Scapegoats seem to die young, or become ill, while the narcissist grows ripe into old age.
It's even interesting that Debbie Reynolds passed away one day after Carrie. Most will observe that as a mother's blind and loving devotion to her daughter. But to the keen observer, who knows the history between these two, who knows about narcissistic abuse, may have a different take. Maybe Debbie couldn't take that Carrie was getting so much press attention from all over the world, and like in life, wanted to upstage her dead daughter by her own death. I know this sounds horrible to utter out loud let alone write here, but we know the signs, and I see them here.
Just curious if others are making these same connections or is it just me.
I watched Wishful Drinking on HBO Demand a couple of months ago. She was brilliant, so funny and captivating in this one woman show about her crazy life and all her hollywood connections.
Happy New Year!
I think Carrie Fisher could have been an ACON too but this time with an engulfer on the borderline personality wing. I read the book years and years ago and it seemed like drama was big. Yes she went no contact didn't she? She did die very young. I see the articles blaming her substance abuse, but that is more of a symptom of the abuse she went through. I find it weird the mother died only a day later too. Wanting the attention subconsciously, such an engulfer, she had to follow her daughter into the afterworld?
DeleteHappy New Year too. :)
Hi anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting observation. Yes, I read about Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds on the news for the past two weeks, and sort of wondered why Carrie died so young and her mother died a day later. I think Debbie and her first husband, Eddie Fisher, were probably narc parents but they were not malignant narc parents like the ones Peep and I have. If Debbie was a malignant narc parent, Carrie would have gone NC or spent less time with her as Angelina Jolie does with her father, John Voight.
Debbie probably realized that her daughter was revered and well-loved as Princess Leia, and that she is an icon. Maybe she felt alone and stressed out when she planned Carrie's funeral. Because of posts in social media and in the news, Debbie probably felt overwhelmed and want to join Carrie. She will be forever remember as a mother who joined her daughter in heaven one day after her daughter died. Malignant narc mothers or father would not be as convincing as mild narc parents. Debbie established her relationship for over 20 years, years after Carrie published "Postcards from the Edge" and had a movie made on her book. Eddie Fisher never made an effort with Carrie or his son, Todd Fisher, so his story would have been off if he ever claim that he wants to join Todd or Carrie in heaven.
Yes, Debbie sounds like she had been a narc mother but she was not a malignant narc mother. It was sad that Carrie took drugs, aged quickly, and she had severe PTSD, at the same time thinking she has bipolar disorder. Since her bipolar disorder was not genetically based, we could tell that she was a victim of narcissistic and gaslighting abuse, revictimization, and invalidation. :(
She saw herself as attached to Carrie. I have noticed these differences between the "ignorers" and the "engulfers" Ignorers want us destroyed and never bond, and while both kinds can be malignant sociopaths, engulfers will claim "love" and "care" but it is the destructive kind that really is not.
DeleteHi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteGood points taken. Maybe Debbie was more the self-involved type and maybe not the malignant type of Nmother. I just saw a lot of parallels and wanted to inquire with Peep and friends, you included.
Peep did a great post on Tiffany Sedaris, and I think there are true tell-tale signs of others as well. Nancy Motes, Julia Robert's half-sister; they shared a mother, comes immediately to mind as well. She, in my opinion, was a family scapegoat and was in enormous emotional and spiritual pain at the time she committed suicide.
Another who comes to mind is Mariah Carey. Her ex-husband, Tony Mattola, admitted to covertly abusing Carey in their marriage back in the 90's. He had her followed and was known to gas light her as well. He also made her tour non-stop and (initially) squashed any attempts at her creative song writing and collaborations with hip-hop/rap artists. He wanted her to sing more "Hero" songs, which MC hated. As a result of his abuse, she became paranoid for a time, and had a mental/emotional breakdown in early 2,000's.
These are just my observations. Narc abuse has patterns and parallels.
I think there is a difference too between the "actress" borderline personality narcs, "drama queen" types [who else is attracted into acting and cold stone sociopathic no emotions narcs who may wear masks but desire no bonding with the chose scapegoat. In some ways the ones who seek bonding, "the engulfers" can put a thicker fog around their victims. Ie they believe their mother's love them but will run for the hills not even knowing why or escape into drugs and alcohol while other scapegoats will feel the burning hate and will be objects of derision from the entire family pretty early on like Tiffany Sedaris 'I never liked you people". A cold stone sociopath would never drop dead the day after a daughter's death though they may go rake up some narc supply over being the grieving mother. In my case, despite some of my mother's lies, it was pretty well known I was hated by my mother among the family the problem is she got them to believe I deserved it.
DeleteMaybe there are some feelings involved for the narc mother who drops dead a day after a daughter's deat but it doesn't mean she wasn't any less destructive.
Nancy Motes was the impoverished "throw-away" scapegoat of Julia Roberts family.
The engulfers are the narc mothers who say they love you, and want you around. They hug to strangle, best metaphor I can come up with. They may even believe they "love" their children but their selfishness and drama seeking destroy them.
The ignorers, hate us, and while they may wear masks to appear nice to others, they have no illusions about that hatred. We are just tools for them to abuse and trash cans to types like tht.