Tuesday, May 2, 2017

Done with them ALL

I'm finally done with them ALL.  Don't make the mistake of trying to win a few family members to yourself or getting down in the pit of trying to win them over. 

I put the last on restricted status on Facebook. I spent too long trying to "win" a few stragglers to my side. It was a waste of time. Even ACON's who go no contact from abusers and are a few years in, can make that mistake of thinking, "Maybe I can get this nicer relative to see my side of things," So you try and are nice and think thoughts like, "Let's focus on positive things" but then you realize the betrayals are still there. The disrespect is still there. It's more subtle but it is there. 

I tried to hang around and "win" a few over away from the narcissists. I wanted to have a few family members left in the world.  It failed.They will always do what they are told by the narcissist even if they tell you to the contrary. They do not care. Even trying to hold on to relationships with the cousins, hurt me. They still were visiting my abusers. They all kissed the butt of my abusers and those people came FIRST.

This means from Queen Spider, I have no family left. NOONE. All nieces and nephews were turned against me. They all chose to believe her smear campaigns. I hate my "role" in the family and have rejected it and even the most extended relative never failed to remind me, so I am finished with the ENTIRE LOT.

I wasted the few years after the initial no contact trying to "win" a "few" people over after going NC with the majority. Scapegoats are never validated. They will not give a crap about your causes, art work,or who you are, they will only see you as the narcs do. Even with "nice" ones be careful, too many people are sheep and they love to bootlick narcs. My Uncle narc got really chummy with all the cousins. You may have hopes and dreams of recovered relationships or keeping that niece or cousin in your life, but in my case it ended up being a pile of dung. I just got hurt again.

Some of us will get to that place and inner strength of realizing all the "trying" is for naught. The whole family system is poison, we have to accept that this is a group of people we were not loved and cherished in and nothing we do or say is going to change that. This can go out to the extended relatives too.

Many ACONs face this, where they think they can "save" or "recover" a few relationships in the family. We are a few years into no contact and that is going well, but we have false thoughts, about recovering a few family members and think "Well maybe I won't have to cut everyone off, that's a bit harsh isn't it?" 

The narcissists move in, they don't leave one thread or person untouched. Even the most extended relatives will be used as report tellers, and grilled for information, they will keep secrets for the narcissists and always betray you. You may note too among the "nicer" extended people, there are things that bother you, how every time you tell them anything you are "wrong" or "too emotional" or how you feel on edge around them all. Validation is rare or you must always be on your "best behavior". Some families are so narcissist riddled, that if you expose one or two narcissists, there's another to pop up in place, and they will lie too. I faced facts that Aunt Denial was just as poisonous as my mother with her specialty of "concerned trolling" and crocodile tears to be far more advanced. I went no contact with her three and a half years ago along with my mother but my cousins were being very influenced by her and her husband, Uncle Narcissist. They visited each other several times a year.

We get dreams of potentially viable relationships. I had it with one niece who I was emailing for a while, and who refused to befriend me on Facebook and treated me as though I was poison. I tried so hard to reach out and loved and cared for her, so this one hurt me a lot. I realized however I was not going to win over the messages or control of her parents and walked away peacefully. I thought I could keep my cousins in my life on a very low contact basis and maybe later visit and reconnect but I noticed how often they were visiting Uncle Narcissist and even making sure I was not invited to family events my mother and sister were not at. They followed all the directions of the narcissists, and the flow of communication within the family remained narcissist driven. To be frank, if someone has any connection with a narcissist, you have gone no contact with, in most of the cases the relationship will not be to rescued. It didn't escape my notice how lovingly they spoke of my mother.

Don't waste a few years spinning your wheels like me. Ditch all who have treated you with disrespect and who have chosen the narcissists over you.  They are betrayers already not to defend or stand up for you and the constant litany of trying to correct the endless narcissist's lies grows old. Younger members of the family may be less culpable, but they are in the fog and have been given a picture of you via the narcissists as well. Escape the trap of seeking love and validation.

 I know even three and half years in, I still struggle,like I am pulling myself out of a mudbog. I know I have walked away from so many people. I went no contact with my brother a year ago and still do not regret it.  I dealt with one of the most severe sociopaths out there, where every word was manipulation. Four decades of abuse is a lot to overcome. There is so much to fix.  With the ended friendships, having no family, it has been worth it, but there has been a lot of pain. Inside I ask myself continously "How did it go so bad?" I have been disappointed and betrayed so often. I can't do it anymore and I am not. 

Facing the fact of how I was seen and treated was very difficult. It bothers me that I had so many unhealthy relationships in my life where the main message was that I was "not good enough" and was surrounded by so many people who told me I must be fixed to be acceptable. I realize now the immensity of what I was denied. I believe if I had not entered into a loving marriage, where there was true acceptance and love, I would have been destroyed. What these people did to me is that bad.

To heal one must seek out people who do love you and accept you. I have a few. But I know at this time in life, I am no longer going to "TRY" to "WIN" anyone over. Once that begins, you have already LOST the relationship and there was never a real one to begin with.

Update on this 2019; I do remain VLC with a few cousins, the aunt that loved me boy's but remained no contact from the rest of the family.

Update: 2020:All ties to the family are cut including the cousins.


  1. Three weeks ago, I found that a "local friend" is a malignant narc ad cut her off for good. After two years of dealing with endless criticism, manipulations, backstabbing, and "suggestions" from her, I realized from reading a text message and then a horrible email that this she is a malignant narc.

    I had been angry with myself for having a malignant narc as a "friend" for 2 1/2 years, as she has been engaging in subtle smear campaign against me. I cut off the cord while at the same time, she is spending too much time with a mutual friend, whom I believe I might cut off soon. I will tell you why as I go along.

    I cut a malignant narc as soon as I read gaslighting statements in an email, "Those whom I recently sent pics to were notified to respect my privacy by not posting them. They all responded that they would never Post without permission, anyway. When reading, be sure to read every word carefully and not jump to conclusions. My text began with, "If you have any pics of me on Facebook or any other social media sites, please remove NOW!" The word If implies that I am not accusing you of anything... but just want you to know. I emphasized the word, "NOW!" to let you know how important it is to me.

    The second part of my text said, "Don't discuss me nor my business on social media with anyone." Again, pay close attention to words. Notice, I didn't say, "Stop discussing me nor my business on social media." The word Stop would be accusatory and would imply that you are presently doing so. I simply said, "Don't discuss me nor my business on social media with anyone." That means if you're thinking of doing so... don't. Also, FYI, I was referring to my entrepreneurial business. Nonetheless, of the 25 or 30 people who received my email or text, you were the only one who had a negative interpretation of it's meaning..." She used an incident as an example and then told me what she wanted me to think or feel. I was angry.

    And "Although the world is an evil place... there are still many good people living in it. Stop seeing everyone as being out to harm you! Also, stop discussing how abusively your adopted mother treated you. You speak and think about her so often that your very aura screams a-b-u-s-e-d! Once a person has proven to be genuine, you need to accept their good for what it's worth."


    1. Yes we have to be careful of malignant narc fake friends.I had to remove several from my life. After I woke up this took some time too, it ranged from the false friend from college for 30 years to the Mrs Curses.

      Yes endless criticisms is one of their markers.I got tired of narcs criticizing me for things that took money I didn't have to fix, and yes when you see the disloyalty, their defense of every stranger or acquaintance against you, it's time to run.

      Don't blame yourself,there are a lot of malignant narcs out there. I know I have to still be cautious and my trust has been broken a lot too.

      If a mutual friend is getting in deep with her,that is a bad sign too.I can't take the narc defenders and enablers who always consider me "wrong" next to the narcs as well. Those kind of people will make you miserable.Like with the final family members I walked away from,they would speak of my mother so lovingly even after I told them about the abuse, all sharing events, and dinners together, I could not take it anymore. The fact remained that they all shared in the disrespect together. Sounds like the same with your mutual friend and this narc.
      Sounds like a narc to post attention getting pictures on facebook or online and then order everyone about telling them not to share them or use them.

      They will always defend their bossiness like her defense of the word "NOW". "DO WHAT I SAY IS THE NARCS MANTRAS"

      When people tell you what to think or feel that is a bad bad sign too.I was told by the cousins I walked away from, what to think and feel too, and wrote previously how one told me I was paranoid and that my emotions upset them.I realized I could not be enough of a robot either to please any family member and there was a certain deadness there, that bothered me. They have a culture where any emotions even too much enthusiasm is not acceptable.

      Narcs will always call people paranoid and gaslight them,so yeah, I got that message from some of the worse narcs too, including one ex-narc friend,"Stop seeing the world as an evil place. She yelled at me for saying I was an outcast on here, not something I shared in day to day life but mistakenly thought she was a close friend, and then in the next sentence told me that my weight embarrassed her, and her parents were outraged by my weight too. She gave me some fake story about how she told them about my Lipedema, and they were repentant,but I wonder who brought my weight up first. Yeah all sorts of double messages. this woman will tell you the world is not evil while committing full blown evil against you.

      when she gives you that aura crap,saying it screams abused, she is basically telling you that her abuse of you is your fault. It's more of their usual BS.

  2. A malignant narc and I had a mutual friend and I noticed that the mutual friend is acting strangely lately. I have been helping the mutual friend to navigate through the system while she was homeless. She wants to think positive because being realistic and fighting for resources she needs makes her angry and depressed. She claimed that she has a different personality than mines, and she wants to know God's will for her life. As of today, she should have been in her new apartment, but she is still "homeless" waiting for something. She did not get her keys, sign documents with her landlord, nor contacted people to help her move her belongings. I am beyond out of my wits. A malignant narc is getting an opportunity with that women so I plan to spend time with that mutual friend and continue to contact my other local friends.

    I want to give you one piece of advice. Going forward, make and keep friends with those who do not know your narcs (parents, siblings, ex spouse, ex friends, or ex boss, etc). Spend time with those who are not mutual friends or know your narcs. I will pray that you will find friends who are not with a narc or who does not know a malignant narc in your life.

    1. You know, I think mercy is a good thing, but a friend you took in while homeless should treat you a lot better then that. I think you need to tell her to leave and the possibility is there she is a user, using you for free rent and board. She may be giving stories of "getting apartments", "money" and more to drag the time out. She could be hoarding money behind the scenes. I think if she has told you she is moving out and has not done it yet, she is playing a delay game. She has no place to remark on your personality and is basically spitting on your good will in helping her stay off the streets. Legally you have every right to tell her to get out and if she won't leave, you could call the police and force her to leave. I don't like seeing people in the streets, but I feel like this woman could be using you. Someone who is homeless giving you "think positive" speeches, really has a lot of gall while you are housing her and providing a roof over her head. She could be a covert narc seeking to take advantage. I have almost been homeless, and I know other people who have been and I would never treat someone like that who has helped me and kept me off the park bench.

      No one is safe who has any connection, communication or relationship with any of the narcissists I went no contact with. Sadly that includes all the cousins and others. I don't think much of people who defend narcissists anymore.

    2. Hi. I found your blog on this topic and I know, now, that I'm not alone in this exact scenario with narcissists, whether family or fake friends, and please know that your writing this blog has given me the strength to carry on. Thank you so much for giving me and others a "voice"! :)

    3. Thanks Dee, I am glad I was able to help. Sorry you are dealing with the same thing. Yes this is happening to too many people.

  3. My problem with contact, is that people who have no malicious intentions get sucked into the vortex anyway. My grandmother who didn't have a duplicitous bone in her body would end up straddling the fence in an attempt to not play the ends against the middle and end up revealing just enough to set my mother off on a witch hunt for who ever she felt like targeting that day. If the older generation of my family were still alive it would have been impossible for me to go NC. But since the people that she used as pawns and that I really cared about are dead I don't care anymore. No one can hold me emotional hostage anymore.

    1. I agree, some are more innocent then others, but they are stuck in the vortex, the fog and do not see through the games, especially younger ones.I do think your grandmother while she was good intentioned, definitely was in some deep denial which cost you all big. I see my earlier generation in my family setting things up and well, there's many new narcissists sprouting up like weeds, I think some of the younger ones could be worse even.

  4. Yes, don't try to win over people from narcs. Make sure you find friends who are not close to a narc in your life. Also make sure you are not befriending a person who is extremely sweet and friendly to you at first. If you do, don't let these people buy you gifts, give you rides, take you out for a dinner, or spend much time with you. In that way, you could avoid having narc friends. Be cautious of those who invite you to a church or some place you feel uncomfortable with.

    1. Yeah if they are friends with a narc,visiting them constantly like Uncle Narc--[narc loyalty even superceded extreme political differences] and close to narcissists who have rejected, abused or ostracized you [especially the scapegoat] there is no hope for any relationship. I do not want friends who are friends with narcs I have walked away from. Some if they are distant acquaintances I may have to deal with it, but I proceed with caution and hope a narc has gotten busy or pursued other fish to fry. Yes we have to be careful of love-bombing. Disabled people and ones with challenges we can be more vulnerable. Narcs definitely will play the love-bombing games. In churches many love to play the "fix it" and show off games too.

  5. Hello Peeps

    Thank you for your post. It can be so hard to come to terms with being unwanted, unloved and unaccepted by the people who are supposed to want, love and accept us unconditionally. It hurts and then we blame ourselves for the hurt and try to fix things - ourselves, our relationships and other people. Like you I was lucky enough to find a life partner who was everything he should be. (After what seemed like the inevitable bad choice of a POS which abuse victims often make because we are trained appease the very people we should be avoiding instead).

    I think we end up so damaged from bad families we often can't cope, at least initially, when we find a functional one. It can take a long time to undo the programming we've had done to us. Dysfunctional families are like wacky religious cults that brainwash the members - only we often get programmed from birth and it can be so very hard to break free. It can take forever to change our thinking and behaviour so that we can not perpetuate the negativity and dysfunction. I'm not sure I'll ever be 100% free of it but I'm getting there.

    I am also no-contact with my entire blood family. Even though the real problem people are only a few (two plus flying monkeys), trying to remain in contact with others would be too difficult for me. I do miss my one Aunt, Uncle and Cousin but I'm not sure they'd believe me and, even if they did I wouldn't want to drag them into the mess. I also miss my one nephew and even suspect he's either no-contact or very low contact with my dad and sisters. He's the only one I ever really wonder about because he was similar to me in personality and the treatment he got - I sometimes see bits and pieces on his wife's twitter and they seem happy (and there's no sign of his/our family, only hers so I think he's walked away as well).

    1. Hi Anon, thanks for your post, it helps me to know I am not the only one who has had to walk away from the whole family.

      Yes coming to terms with being unwanted and unaccepted and "seen" in a certain way can be very difficult. I realized of course there was no changing it.
      Thanks for understanding about the hurt, yes this leads us to too many years of trying to "fix things" and thinking we can make things "right" by being "better" as we are shredded behind the scenes and even for some time in front of the scenes before we put our foot down. That doesn't fit it though, because then the narcs label us cruel, mean, trouble makers etc.
      It is hard for me it has spilled out into other areas of life, I was fortunate to find a life partner too and happy to hear you have too. We have had our ups and downs like all married couples but I am glad you were able to come out of the first abusive relationship and get a decent partner. I almost chose a total narcissist psychopath, but he decided to date my best friend instead--we never even kissed or ended up dating, but I probably missed a bullet there. He ended up cheating on her after they were engaged.

      So yes for ACONs, abusive relationships are very high risk, and we even encounter tons of abuse in friendships and in other areas.

      I know this bad family seriously damaged me, and I think bad to how severe my depression and anxiety was for years and how my health broke, and a lot makes more sense to me today. Yes I am still working on undoing their programming, and many ACONS face this, overcoming the fear of others garbage, the appeasement, trying to please the unpleasable, and always blaming ourselves for everything.


    2. Like you, I do see these families like a cult too and the narcissists are like the cult leaders. I feel like I am undoing a lot of programming, even religiously I am working through somethings and believed my family while they abused in their own religious context, led me to be open to it elsewhere.

      Yes it can take many years. Undoing decades of abuse, is difficult. I read on the cry for justice abuse blog in an article about scapegoats, that most scapegoats don't escape until their 30s, 40s and 50s, and that is undoing DECADES OF ABUSE. I had my own life from 21 on, and lived far away but had enough contact for plenty of their poison to seep in. Hopefully young people with the internet and more will escape far younger and learn how to deal with these outcomes. There is NO reconciliation with these families for a scapegoat NONE. And hopefully more therapists will get a clue about how these disorders work too. I was in therapy from age 18 on to deal with physical abuse and severe anxiety disorders [results of Aspergers I would not learn about for years and physical health] and never heard about "no contact" until I was 43 years of age and implemented at 44.

      I hope to be getting somewhere too and wish for the best for you too. I probably will be having to work on these issues for the rest of my life. In this culture we are reminded of "family" constantly as well which can bring up grief and other issues of lost. Yes so you have had to go no contact with your entire family too, I have met others online who have had to do so too. Sorry you have relatives you miss but I understand. Not all of mine are complete evil of course, some I wouldn't mind having relationships with but they are so INFLUENCED, and with a few I tried as I wrote above, to get them to see my side, but their own programming is far stronger then I can overcome. Was your nephew scapegoated too? He's probably going no contact informally or VLC. There's a reason usually when that happens. I know I tried to connect with other scapegoated people in my family my brother's ex wife--this years and years ago and Aunt Scapegoat but whatever these narcissists do they control everyone even their own victims. I am the FIRST who has ever broken away. My brother's ex wife, was "bought off" 10 years ago by my mother when she lived closer for a time to her but then broke away again. I hope he is happy and has walked away as well. I have felt more relief and calm in the "giving up". It can be hard thought seeing all the close family relationships around me especially in this community but I suppose with time someone would get used to that. Our only real choice is to break away and find what lives we can without their toxicity and disrespect.

    3. Hi Peeps

      Thank you for your response, I find it helpful to talk with others who "get it" because most people don't - unless you have lived through the abuse it is impossible to understand. It can be too much for a person from a functional background to deal with.

      My nephew was scapegoated, now I think about it, once I wasn't around much that's when the focus turned on him. We were both different to our family - nerdy, bookish, thoughtful and that doesn't sit well with the soccer, soaps and lager brigade (I'm English). If he's gone NC or VLC then they'll have to find someone else as the scapegoat. My sisters detest each other but will join forces if they've got someone else to pick on. The eldest is the real problem, the other one (the middle one) is more of a flying monkey and I think she mainly joins in so she doesn't become the target. There's a one year gap between them and then a twelve year gap to me - I was an "accident" which I would have worked out even if I hadn't been told constantly that I was never wanted.

      Like you, I hope that younger people will get out a lot quicker. There's so much more information out there. I think the first thing I read that started to resonate was "Games People Play" by Eric Berne about how dysfunctional relationships develop and are maintained. That must have been in the early 90s when I read it. I'd started looking in the self-help section and whilst it did help, there was nothing specific. Just trying to fix myself when I couldn't even work out what the problems were!

      I think, in the end, we can only save ourselves and that's difficult enough. I stopped being the Scapegoat and became the Runner instead and I think being a Runner is the best thing. You can't reason with dysfunction and although it is hard to accept, they will never, ever care about me. I've found it better to just assume every one of them is already dead - I did my grieving and can now move on even if I never hear anything from or about them ever again.

    4. Hi, I agree it's better to be a Runner and better late then never in getting away. I can tell time is easing some of the pain and know the more time passes the grief will lift and I can move on better too. My good days outdistance the bad finally and I don't feel those old feelings of false guilt. Sometimes I still struggle thinking how did it all go wrong, but then I didn't make the decisions to be the way they are. I read that book too Games People Play, wish it had warned me some play NOTHING BUT GAMES but yeah before the Internet many of us were in the dark. Therapists on my first NC told me to reconcile and I did, they told me "forgive" and "go back". I hope more people will be given proper information and warning.

      I was bookish and nerdish too and didn't fit in with the shoppers, LOL think this is the same for America too. I hope your nephew has fully escaped. It is true they pick a new scapegoat. I am not sure who it will be with me gone. My brother lives far away and found a "new family" in his new girlfriend, so he may not be emotionally invested enough for them to turn him into the scapegoat. Whoever it is, I hope they escape one day. Don't have any hope for brother waking up and he became a narc too.

      Yes there is no reasoning with them. I tried for decades to "talk things out" and "say my piece", there's nothing more to be done. Yes we have to face facts they will never care. I am nearly a senior myself, so my narcs won't be around forever, I figure some younger ones have been created but I won't be around for the show or any more of the evil thankfully.

  6. Hi Peep,

    I just watched Real Housewives of Atlanta Reunion 4 part episode this evening and watched firsthand how a covert sociopath works. I urge everyone to watch this episode because it's a cut and dry case study on sociopathy.

    I watched the entire episode waiting for one of the co-stars to call Phaedra Parks a sociopath. Instead, I heard "She's such a liar," "Who does that?"

    Here's the low down: I suspect Phaedra is envious of Kandi (worth over $35M, successful music producer/artist) and sees her as a threat. Phaedra tells Portia (a.k.a. pawn) that Kandi and her husband, Todd, wanted to drug her and take advantage of her sexually, which is a serious rape accusation. In short, this is slander and is suicide for Kandi's businesses and relationships. People were already using Bill Cosby # with her name. Kandi, of course, was beyond upset at the accusation, which anyone would be.

    Portia, like any good pawn, had protected Phaedra all season. She had an opportunity to throw Phaedra under the bus when they were filming in Hawaii. Kandi got irate over the accusation, and there was Phaedra, quiet as a library mouse. Kandi's anger was 100% directed at Portia. Portia later figured out that Phaedra was lying when Kandi turned to Phaedra to vouch for her that she would never drug anyone. Kandi is anti-drugs period. Portia was like ,"Why would Kandi ask you to vouch for her if she was the one telling you herself that she was planning to drug/take advantage of me" Again, Phaedra was calm, collected and quiet, which is their MO in high conflict against their victim's righteous anger.

    Tonight, 4 of 4 reunion episode, Portia finally disclosed who told her about the Kandi rumor - It was Phaedra all along. This whole time, Kandi's anger was directed towards Portia, and it was Phaedra. Everyone was shocked and disgusted. Portia was just the pawn to hurt Kandi, and Portia would be the fall guy when Kandi's lawyers came knocking, which they were doing with a Cease and Desist letter.


    1. wow, I am sure those shows would be like a narc and sociopath watching fest. LOL I watch Better Call Saul and have thoughts about which character is a sociopath or narc, Chuck is #1, Jimmy who turns into Saul later, definitely has issues too of course. It is interesting the use of pawns isn't it, and well these women often succeed. This show shows the rare event that a sociopath is CAUGHT. The good ones never are, aka Queen Spider,so for Portia to figure out Phaedra was lying to her that's something. Most flying monkey and pawns never figure out they are being lied to, and stay in the fog for life. Yeah Kandi has a stand for a lawsuit for slander and defamation against Phaedra. Yes the sociopaths go calm and quiet, while happily watching the chaos they have created.

  7. (Continue)
    Watching this episode was triggering my PTSD something badly. They really do hide in plain sight, don't they Peep? Kandi got her recompense. Her anger was justified. No one was calling Kandi crazy, mentally ill or paranoid. I'm happy for Kandi, but for most victims of narcissists and sociopaths, we're still waiting for our recompense. We're still waiting for our loved ones to wake up like Portia did. She seemed to mourn being used by Phaedra to hurt Kandi as she should have.

    Through out the remaining episode, Phaedra was quiet, calm and only seemed to want to half-heartedly console Portia/Pawn rather than turn to Kandi, her true target of slander/hate, and ask for forgiveness and own her lies.

    Phaedra has no shame, which we've heard sociopaths don't have. I read an article online leading up to tonight's show, and she's already deflecting with her cavalier responses how everyone is always talking about her and she just minds her business.

    I suspect this will blow over by next season. All will be good again.

    1. Yeah I can see being triggered by this stuff, I know when I watch narcissists at it either fictionally or otherwise I have to be careful. Remember when I wrote about that Evil Lives show,I was being triggered like crazy by that show. [remember I worked with sociopathic teen criminals and I had at least one student that was an out and out would be mass murderer though he got transferred to adult prison] Kandi having some wealth and power,probably was able to accomplish the rarity of stopping a sociopath out to destroy her cold. I am gladshe got her recompense. I am glad they did not call her crazy. Yes 99% of us will never see recompense. I just want left alone. They can have it, just leave me alone.

      Nope the sociopaths never admit doing anything wrong,she'll be a little bit nice to the pawn in case she is of use later.I saw my narcs do this double layer, using others as buffers, and flying monkeys as the "bad news tellers" and more.

  8. I need to come here more often,Peep,and others,I have the same thing going on;I am almost 70,and lots of my old friends are dead,.or almost dead,far away,and I have gotten very depressed about the "Narc core"that my dad(the biggest Narc)which was an upper-class East Coast family,(came over during the Revolutionary War)that my dad pretty much ran away from,and hated,and never spoke to them for 45 yrs.They were Lutheran Ministers,and missionaries to China long ago.With the upper-middle class,I suspect there are a LOT OF NARCS.For one thing,my dad was extremely CRAZY,I mean paranoid--angry,furious,dictatorial,.and this family was overly demanding of their kids.But my dad ended up a NARC.HORRIBLE anyway.I have had a bad.hard,mentally ill life,without much career success,and lots of dysfunction.It is so bad to FEEL ALONE, like you said,knowing your parents were Narcs ,and really mentally ill.So I have felt ALONE ALL MY LIFE,I REALIZE.Narcs are very abusive in many ways.You are right,evil does live.I finally remembered that my dad killed someone,long ago,and threatened to kill me,if I told anyone.--and I FORGOT EVERYTHING,under threats of death.And my dad was a preacher's kid!!Narcs love the upper-middle class.--please reply, anyone here.THANKS!!!

    1. I think its too bad your dad got away from his uppermiddle class narcs and then became one himself too, I guess that can happen. Some scapegoats will become narcs to "fight" back, sometimes its fleas but there are some who go full narc and never look back and don't break the generational abuse. I think there are a lot of narcisissts in religion and the missionary crowd who some of them probably use the missions to act like they are lord and savior of all of the people they are preaching to. Yes I have had a hard bad life too and feel for you. It can be a lonely feeling. For me when I went NC, I knew the rest probably would choose the narc sides, even the nicer cousins were being invited constantly to the uncles house where he called me a loser night and day. Yes even AROUND them I felt and was alone and I am sure you were too with your Dad, think about these narcs always ruin all family ties, you never knew his family. Yes evil does live. Oh so sorry about those returning memories, that sounds horrible. :( He sounds like he was very wicked man. Yes narcs love the upper middle class.