I know poverty via disability [and trauma] in general took me into fundamentalist religion. I believe now religion is hitting the Republic of Gilead danger zone in the USA, because of the disenfranchisement of so many people economically. Heaven seems like your only hope when economic hope is lost. There's a reason my old rural town that had a 37 percent poverty rate has grown even more extremely religious. I believe there is a connection between growing religious extremism, and major economic changes in the United States. Religiosity always is whipped up whenever there is a natural disaster, war or other severe changes in a society. It's happening here and yes it's connected to new drastic laws and Trump remaining in power.
In my case, Religious Hopium was like a weed on the river bank, I grabbed as I was drowning. I have more understanding and compassion for myself for how things progressed. I went to religion to "save me" to "fix my life" believing then in the "magic". This was borne out of desperation and a feeling of utter powerlessness.Life was crushing me. Religion promised me hope. Even now as an ex-Christian, I remind myself, don't ever put any hope like that again in any new religious philosophies, it is a dead end. Many people turn to religion to solve their problems in times of extreme trouble. When people feel powerless, religion and "magic" feel like the only solutions.
Sadly I do think toxic religion will grow in it's influence especially as we have an American society that grows far more poor and public education declines. We have a lot of people now left out of the warp and weave of normal mainstream society. When people feel powerless, oppressed and like there are no answers that will work, religion is there to offer it's [false] hope. You hold out for your dreams coming true in eternity, and no longer in this world. Life is lived for the great beyond and not for today.
This is one reason people are letting of science and ideas of "progress" and have more hope in a would be eternal heaven then any hope on earth. Sadly this is one reason I believe fundamentalists and evangelicals do not believe in social justice or even openly disdain it like that one paper 4,000 evangelical preachers signed against social justice. Poor people do turn to religion and sadly often extreme versions. A lot of it is human desperation, wanting to change their lives, have things "turn out" hoping God helps them. That applied to me. Many fictional books display hardworking "salt of the earth" people who emphasize strong faith in God like in The Grapes of Wrath.
I do find myself having cynical views now. This pertains to some of those verses that showcase poor people as having stronger faith and being told the world will always have poor people and rich people having less chance of getting into heaven then a camel through the eye of a needle. Talk about manipulation. My deconversion rests on my socioeconomic experiences as well. I do dedicate some of my life to class issues, and justice issues as people know. I also tend to have some jaded views about some religious circles that seem to glamorize poverty as they seem to always think it is a positive character building exercise or that vows of poverty will make people "more holy" or "closer to God". One definitely understands the warnings against materialism, and greed and how one should love their fellow man, but there's things preached about on poverty I don't agree with anymore.
Karl Marx once said religion is opium of the people, I can go with that. There can be positive sides to some spiritual quests, but I believe religion is used for societal control. The ultra-wealthy and powerful of society have definitely used religion to tell the poor to "stand down" and accept their lot, as God-derived.
In this country, we have the prosperity gospel that has infused into everything. God blesses the "good" people and the "bad" ones, or as David Ramsey and the Republican party tell us over, and over, are poor because they were not "faithful" enough or didn't "work hard enough" or obey enough. The strain of paternalism is active in many a faith-based initiative. Here things get complicated as there are GOOD rich and poor people, and ones who aren't. Money isn't a definer of the other qualities of human character, but one worries about religions that grow divisions between people, connecting money and success to goodness. Churches that teach messages like this just prop up the status quo.
Like many others, I thought God would make things better if I obeyed and lived the "good' Christian life. I was told depression and anxiety were sins caused by lack of faith They emphasized how lazy everyone was, which was not easy for a person who is on disability. A lot of my religious craziness was borne out of desperation and this feeling of trying to climb up a mountain where the dirt always slid back. I never wanted to be rich, I just wanted to survive and live a life with some dignity. However the years in Christianity chipped away at my self esteem in ways I can't even describe.
How much of religion is for social control? I saw too many messages in the evangelical and fundamentalist world where they seem to agree with the message "work will make you free" as they put down unions, worker's rights or any fair and equitable wages for other people. Christianity especially in America has become a vehicle for empire building, that elevates the powerful, that's a problem. I wonder how much of religion was built for self-policing and control among the population too.
Why Are the Poor More Religious? [see above map from the New York Times too]
The Poor and Disabled in Churches
"There is, in the USA, a thing called 'Christianity' that has little to do with Christianity as it is generally understood in Europe, or in the longer view of the Christian tradition. It is a heavily nationalistic, militaristic, masculine, authoritarian cult, with Jesus as the Cadillac-Driving All-American Hero who has come to save his Chosen People from Gayness, Socialised Medicine, Arabs and Long Haired Hippies. This might best be called, "Amerireligion". This was deliberately created after the 1960s by the American right, who wanted a way to stop the changes begun by the Progressive Era and the New Deal and to restore the dominance of the old ruling class. The civil rights and anti-vietnam war era brought it to a head. The right saw an opportunity to appeal to the gut-instincts of the white working class blue collar American male by playing on his prejudices - particularly on matters such as race, alternative lifestyles and the sexual revolution. So there was a deliberate demonisation and vilification of those who were seen as 'different' from that red-blooded white-skinned American male ideal - they were 'liberal hippy tree hugging dirty commie atheist bastards' - not to be trusted, because they were 'anti-American' (when 'American' is defined by the hard right)."
ReplyDeleteI believe you are correct about the American forms of Christianity, Jesus, apple pie and capitalism. However when I was leaving Christianity, I realized in my case, as I studied things, the entire religion was authoritarian at it's root. I couldn't ignore that.
DeleteThe whole Bible is based on ancient Israeli "nationalism" with the OT full of stories of a certain people conquering others, in "god's name". A hard scrabble desert people formed a harsh religion based in punishment and sacrifice. I read an article, tried to find the link where the scholar talked about how religions formed in harsh places were far more ruthless and draconian and based on austerity. He connected the worse traits of Christianity [and other Abrahamic religions] to it's desert origins.
I also left Christianity realizing there was a different "jesus" almost for every person, or culture, and yes America has produced "Republican Jesus" aka smack down on the hippies, liberals and socialism! That said, though, as some people produced different Jesus's via their personality, hippie nice and kind Jesus, Universal cosmic Jesus, who was kind to other religions and didn't send anyone to hell, I realized the person of Jesus was like an 8 ball of humanity, people put on this figure their own beliefs, personality, and more. During my own time in Christianity, they convinced me too I had a "personal relationship" with Jesus but I realized that inside I was forming a figure based on my own prejudices, desires and traits. My Jesus told people to renounce the right wing. My Jesus was against war even in my most fundie days which kept me an outside. So I have been there myself.
One saw discrepancies even in scripture, with Jesus talking about hell and that MOST people would go there--not every kind--you know I've read scripture and studied it intently, the end of the world Jesus beat down--in Revelation where the blood flows so heavy it forms rivers and "wrath" is unleashed and that then contradicts with the scenes of Jesus being loving, weeping over his dead friend before raising him from the dead, preaching that the poor should be helped. There's a reason cultures especially toxic ones can form a Jesus or Christianity of their desire, and you are right, American Christianity has become a sickening mess of destructive anti-intellectualism, hatred for gay people, immigrants and many minority groups, prosperity gospel, racism, war-mongering, destruction of the environment, repression of women, keeping the status quo for the wealthy and powerful--the foundational authoritarianism of YAHWEH, actually helps with this, and advancement of corrupt capitalism.
I certainly have far less issues with people who still follow a loving Jesus, but in my case I left Christianity realizing the entire religion rested on oppression and authoritarianism. The false promises, the evil of this world, and more added up. It no longer worked fro me. Even with Jesus having to do a "sacrifice" came from the demands of a demanding authoritarian figure.
I believe American Christianity TM is destroying our country. The Dominionists are succeeding in the take-over. People are suffering from it's edicts as poverty grows here. We are all in danger of it taking us into a dark age.
Poverty and religion are definitely correlated. The poorer a region is, the more religious it tends to be.
ReplyDeleteWhich to me begs a question; could it be, that religion *causes* poverty?
Christianity and Islam in particular, notice the kind of behavior both encourage; "The meek shall inherit the earth", "turn the other cheek", "give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars", simply behave well, don't make waves, trust in God, and you'll get your reward, in heaven if not here on earth.
Which to my mind rather smacks of passivity. People waiting for God to rescue them, instead of actively working to rescue themselves and push hard to end the mistreatment of the masses by the few. There's nothing in the Bible about standing up for your rights, or throwing off oppression. Instead, you must "love your enemies".
Notice even how they refer to God as "The Lord"...a highly authoritarian figure, given to very capricious commands that often make no sense but nevertheless must be obeyed to a "T".
Religion seems play a big part in making society authoritarian, rather than democratic.
There's a pattern of when elites have too much power and everyone else has too little, the entire society becomes impoverished. When people aren't allowed to benefit from their own labor, because all of it goes to the elites, people lose their industriousness. And the whole society suffers as a result.
That may well be what we're seeing in the US right now.
We saw this in New Orleans, just after Hurricane Katrina, all those poverty-ridden people doing almost nothing, because they don't own the places they live in and don't have the legal right to rebuild, nor the financial means to build something that will meet building codes, even if they DID have the legal right, nor even the means to get out of the city before Katrina hit.
And waiting for a rescuer is precisely what Christianity teaches, isn't it? Don't rise up, don't rebel, don't cause trouble, don't even refuse to give to the State. Give unto Ceasar...who is already the richest man in the empire...
I have a online friend who is also an ex-Christian and we have explored the theme together that Christianity [as well as other toxic religions] to serve the interests of the powerful. The more I looked into things, I realized some of the manipulations of even the Bible which centered on telling people to follow without question...one verse that especially bugs me is "Lean not on your own understanding".
DeleteI know I have brought up my own point about how religion changed when humanity formed cities and civilizations and became centered around "strong man" gods, just like their cities were formed around one "strong man" or king or leader. This is why our major world religions especially Abrahamic ones are formed around themes of "obedience, submission, and competition [the good, the few get into heaven, the mass majority go to hell and are not the "chosen" people or the "elect"] In the pantheon of religion including native religions, one can see there is definitely differences, where the themes do not rest on power but on cooperation. These religions focus on compartmentalization and on the "distribution" of power.
We see now the effects of religion being used to economically oppress people. The more secular Western European nations have advanced, their people live more prosperous and stable lives then people do in America, we can even see the difference in the USA, the more religious a state ALABAMA, the more poor it is. I think religion both causes poverty and also reinforces the institutions that ensure more poverty. Pastors are not much into distribution of wealth or what they rail against as socialism. Sure a few liberal ones may talk about "just wages" but there is the Bible with it's rules about slaves instead of condemnation of slavery. [You think God could have figured out slavery was wrong?] This proves the book is manmade. I always wondered why rape was never added to the 10 commandments too but I digress.
Religion especially in fundamentalist forms, does indoctrinate the poor to accept their place. That this is their life that has been God-given. I was taught in fundamentalist churches, though I chaffed at this a bit at the time that "fighting for rights" was "worldly".
One is told over and over to be meek and submissive and to "obey" authority, bosses, government leaders, pastors without question. Even in Catholicism this theme was there, that the Magisterium knew best and priests were more learned and studied and you must "obey" and not have a spirit of rebellion. I disagreed with this at the time, but I heard in several churches [IFB, Calvary Chapel and mainstream evangelical ones] that we were to obey leaders--Romans 13 and pray for them and that they were "God-placed". Sure the fundamentalist world has the conspiracy people there too, who consider all world leaders Satan's "new world order" chosen, but most of the churches preached OBEY via Romans 13.
Yes add the messages too of "turn the other cheek", etc. You are correct the whole theme is "don't rebel, don't stir up trouble, or make waves' I understand the positives of living in peace in society, but the whole theme of authoritarianism is there in the bible, and the message is Obey God, obey your leaders--even ones that leave you in severe poverty in some countries--let's not forget some "God-chosen" monarchs starved their own people, and there was a correlation in world history with revolutions, and decline of religious thought or growing atheism/free thought/more liberalized religion.
continuing...
DeleteOne verse always bugged me, and my IFB pastors would quote it, almost as a way to excuse their wicked politics against the poor, "The poor will always be with you". To me it smacked of resignation, a religious way to tell people that the way of the world with corruption and oppression of the poor was to stay intact. I know there are liberation theology people who would take issue with this too, but that verse was used in a very negative way.
The whole message of "Your life is supposed to suck and be painful, now wait for heaven and accept your lot" definitely is woven in Christianity. I know I personally went running to extreme religion, remember I had the context in my life of being surrounded by wealthier people in my family and dive bombing down the ladder, so there, was this kind of thinking too in me, "Well I am poor, now I will live for God and my reward will be in heaven, since this life is so troubled!"
It is almost like an escape hatch. Some may dispute maybe this escape hatch of dreams for the life after helps people keep their sanity but there's the dark side too, if people ACCEPT that this world is supposed to be horrible and oppressive and have ideas where they think this is the way things should be, where millions on this earth live on less then 2 dollars a day, and even starve to death in other countries and have their labors exploited, how is this going to bring any change or progress or positive changes in the world? My Christian pastors always condemned humanism, and well the refusing of basic social justice within evangelical circles, does not surprise me. I guess people who believe the majority go to hell anyway, don't mind if people get a taste of hell on this earth. This is one place where religion really stands against human progress. I left Christianity realizing it was all about POWER.
So yes a passivity is taught, 'this is the way things have always been", remember "conservativism" is to "conserve" what has been. People speak of liberal Christians but they are very rare, I would say in my community there's only 2 churches that would count among the dozens of churches as liberal here.
Yes even the titles for God, LORD are based on titles like King and LORD of the MANOR. Can someone really have a "personal relationship" with someone who is your supreme BOSS? I digress.
While the christians speak of the USA as a Christian nation, really the history of the Republic and positive sides of governmental representation, rested in the Enlightenment, Not Christianity. So yes it makes it all authoritarian.
I agree we are at the time, where the elites have grabbed so much, people are losing motivation, the society is declining, this too as I wrote in this article is linked directly to the rise of extreme religion.
And yes religion can bring passivity, wait for God. "Thoughts and prayers" instead of actually DOING ANYTHING. Some churches will help with food, clothes, etc, but then that question comes up, what are they supporting on the political level? Oddly the majority support the ultra wealthy and authoritarianism that ensures a steady stream of people into the food pantry or who are in "need". None question the system outside a few liberal ones that set up the poverty. In other countries, these discrepancies can be even worse. I remember seeing pictures of Catholic churches where the altar was almost made entirely of gold, in Peru, where most of the common people lived in severe poverty.
Religion and poverty definitely do go together.
> message is Obey God, obey your leaders--even ones
ReplyDelete> that leave you in severe poverty
This reminds me of the story of Job, which always bugged me a lot in my Christian days. Job, described as a good man who'd never done anything wrong, is deliberately put through a ton of torturous ordeals and misery. Why? Because God made a bet with Satan. What??!? This is the act of an all-loving God?
It was depicted as a rather severe test. Job continues to remain meek and obedient, even though he is absolutely miserable and in pain, through no fault of his own. He just accepts his lot. And for this he passes the test and is rewarded.
But think of the lesson this was teaching; don't stand up for yourself, don't make waves, don't rebel against even an extremely cruel, unjust authority. Just keep your head down and take it.
We always get the worst government we'll tolerate. Time was, people used to routinely murder their way to being king or emperor. No modern western democracy would tolerate that anymore. No one would obey a person who murdered a superior. That murderer's power is *gone* and is going to prison and his own underlings will make sure he or she does. It's a deeply ingrained part of the culture now.
We raised our standards of what we will tolerate. When people stopped tolerating exploitation wages, a century ago, we got minimum wage laws and many labor protection laws and the protected legal right to collective bargaining and unions. People fought and died for it, en masse.
And if they hadn't, we wouldn't have a legal minimum wage today or OSHA or a Department of Labor or an Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
Tens of thousands of people died in the construction of the Panama Canal, where none of those worker protections existed. Workplace safety is a high priority these days, as the culture just won't tolerate lax safety standards. Companies with lax safety go out of business. Boeing is in big trouble right now, tens of billions of dollars in cancelled orders, because they cut corners with the safety of the Boeing 737 Max. No one wants to fly in a plane that isn't safe. Airlines that use unsafe planes will go out of business as no one will fly with them. So the pressure is immense. Rightfully so.
If the US culture did tolerate it, we'd be India and China, where mass workplace deaths are common. Bhopal, anyone? Or that massive chemical plant explosion in Jianjin Port, China, 2015--and there's been more, since.
Or Chernobyl.
The more religious a US state is, the more the local culture seems to tolerate lies, tyranny, and corruption. It's why they vote for someone like Trump; they're not concerned about his constant lying or his obvious and proven corruption, they *want* a stongman who can bypass red tape and "Get things done". They perceive red tape and regulations as obstacles, instead of as protections against tyranny and exploitation that people fought and literally died for to put in place.
I learned the hard way, Jesus isn't coming to the rescue. And the leaders don't care about you, at all. If you want a better life, you can't depend on a Messiah or a Hero. Positions of power tend to attract the wrong kind of people. You have to rescue yourself, and work to make the world a better, fairer, kinder, more prosperous place, yourself.
But you don't have to do it alone. "Every man for himself" is what the elites want. Because "Divide and Conquer" works. A divided people are a weak people. The more atomized a society is, the easier it is to exploit and oppress and tyrannize.
But that's another topic for another post. :)
Oh the book of Job, that book always bugged me too, the worse verse in the book is this one...
DeleteJob 13:15 King James Version (KJV)
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
When I was a fundie, I quoted that one a few times, but inside part of my brain was screaming, "That's sick!!!!"
Now I read that verse and think that's the very definition of an abusive relationship, hang in for the long haul, while you get pummeled and literally regarding that verse, lose your life or get killed.
Later after deconversion, I had thoughts about how God treated his own son/himself. Just sick. The whole strain of authoritarianism applies even to the God figure we are presented with, Obey unto death even if you get tortured. The whole thing is scary to me now.
And Job got put through really bad stuff, losing everyone, destruction of house and property, friends turning against him, horrible sores, and all for a bet with Satan? Yeah I thought that was sick too.
One thing in Christianity that started bugging me too was this idea that troubles would make you a better person, that's not necessarily true, one can learn and develop some strengths, but for someone to be stripped down, and ripped down and suffering for decades, it changes a person. I got tired of being all the evils and horrors of this world had a "purpose", some time ago I did posts and had a guest blogger talk about the ideas that God has plans for our lives.
Yeah the idea too one must be a meek, compliant, never complaining, smiling, drone who never emotes anything but positivity even in the midst of horrendous suffering, grief, pain and loss, seems to be the inherent message of the Job story. I'd have pastors preach on Job and stress what a sin it was to be like.
You are right, the message of the book, is accept the evil, take the pain, the suffering, the loss and shut down your emotions, comply, and obey, and don't complain.
continuing..
DeleteThe book too also sets up the premise that God [Yahweh] can do whatever he wants to you and because he's God and you're not, it doesn't matter how evil, or horrific it is, you have to suck it up and don't rebel. Really God is a cruel monster in the book of Job, playing games with Satan his willing jailer and warden for hell with souls.
So yes that message is there, sit there and take it.
yes humans have raised their standards, there's segments of human society where rule by right and might where rulers can kill, abuse, hurt and maim to their heart's content is no longer acceptable. Sadly the more conservative a human society, the more they support cruelty on behalf of leaders and lack of mercy, aka conservative states holding to the death penalty.
I agree people fought for worker's rights, fairness and safety on the job. Of course the conservative religious are against those things too. Disturbing.
Sadly I think the USA is reverting, we are losing freedoms, and desire for human dignity and progress in many circles, NOT ALL. Some are still sounding the warning cry, but there's some serious problems.
I do not think Job is a book that endears empathy or compassion. I thought about this. In a religion where God has the power to cast so many into hell, and can do whatever he wants no matter how harsh, or cold, or terrifying, empathy sort of disappears. Where was Yahweh's empathy for Job? There wasn't any. The man sucked it up and took it. Kind of sad that's the message.
The problem is that authoritarian religion teaches people to shut down empathy and that "might" makes right, this is why they worship the uber wealthy even if they are corrupt. {aka Donald Trump, the "divine rule of kings" lives on in America.
Yes they worship the "strong man". so their god is cruel, they don't care, he's powerful and gets shit done, and they think the same of leaders too.
Negative parental paradigms are the thread here, LET BIG DADDY FIX IT and BIG DADDY CAN PUNISH ANY WAY HE WANTS AND DO WHATEVER HE WANTS.
While I have been reading books that discuss the topics of white supremacy, Christianity, and slaveholders religion in recent months, I noticed from reading and dealing with Christians is that most poor people find messages about poverty, rich rewards after death, and waiting for the more abundant rewards soothing to their souls. I also noticed those wealthy people who would pay billions to get conservative politicians elected do not believe they would go to hell. I left Christian churches eighteen months ago because of incidents with several members of a Christian church.
ReplyDeleteSince I left Christian churches, I learned very ugly histories about Christian churches and Christianity and how slaveholder religion negatively affected churches in the United States that Christian churches in the US have been very toxic. While I have been learning and reading about slaveholder religion and Christian churches' complicity in slavery, Jim Crow laws, and the current climate of anti-black racism, I was shocked to notice that African-Americans already knew about these issues, but they chose to stay in Christian churches that taught theological concepts that were against them.
Then I noticed they have more of a submissive personality that those who believe in the gospel of liberation and who would fight for civil rights. I noticed that these people were able to obtain higher positions in corporations and get into top graduate school based on their submissive personalities and their negative attitude toward those who believe in liberation and freedom from oppression and slavery. (cont.)
I often wondered why didn't God ever outlaw slavery? He surely had the chance in the 10 commandments. The selling of human beings is condoned in the Bible, it's all over the place. Some bible translations, wiggle around the slave issue using terms like bondman or bondmaid, or servant, but when I was doing my Bible studies I learned to look up the original Greek and Hebrew, and the words were SLAVE, also the buying and selling of human beings are obvious in the verses.
DeleteThe BUYING AND SELLING OF HUMAN BEINGS
Leviticus 25:44-46 King James Version (KJV)
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
***********************
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Some may say that's ancient OT precepts that God did away with grace, blah blah in the NT, but the NT isn't much better...
Ephesians 6:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Another translation:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
and this one:
1Ti 6:1
¶
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
Unchecked Copy Box 1Ti 6:2
And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
The greek word here is doulous in this verse, translated in Strongs...
a slave, bondman, man of servile condition
a slave
metaph., one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men
devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests
a servant, attendant
Keep in mind when someone is under a "bond", they have been sold.
Deletetypo in above, the word is DOULOS.....
DeleteI would be interested in some of the books you have been reading, so please share the titles. White supremacy definitely has ties to Christianity especially in the evangelical/fundamentalist branches. I read myself how churches especially teh SBC was involved with White Citizen Councils. People don't realize it, but there is a religious basis for Trump's racist agendas for the USA, and it has to do with the evangelical dominionists.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Councils
The South seems to be desiring to conquer the whole country with religion in the forefront, and racist agendas intertwined. This is why southern states are outlawing abortion, going for the birth control, suppression of women goes along with the racism, and authoritarianism.
With the Civil Rights movement, the white evangelical world have made it clear they are not supporters. They are against it. They do not support "rights" for anyone. Sadly I listened to IFB preachers teach me that demanding and agitating for "rights" was against God's will.
See this statement with thousands of evangelical pastors across the nation signing it, they bring up racism, these are not folks that support civil rights.
https://statementonsocialjustice.com/
Racism
"We affirm that racism is a sin rooted in pride and malice which must be condemned and renounced by all who would honor the image of God in all people. Such racial sin can subtly or overtly manifest itself as racial animosity or racial vainglory. Such sinful prejudice or partiality falls short of God’s revealed will and violates the royal law of love. We affirm that virtually all cultures, including our own, at times contain laws and systems that foster racist attitudes and policies.
We deny that treating people with sinful partiality or prejudice is consistent with biblical Christianity. We deny that only those in positions of power are capable of racism, or that individuals of any particular ethnic groups are incapable of racism. We deny that systemic racism is in any way compatible with the core principles of historic evangelical convictions. We deny that the Bible can be legitimately used to foster or justify partiality, prejudice, or contempt toward other ethnicities. We deny that the contemporary evangelical movement has any deliberate agenda to elevate one ethnic group and subjugate another. And we emphatically deny that lectures on social issues (or activism aimed at reshaping the wider culture) are as vital to the life and health of the church as the preaching of the gospel and the exposition of Scripture. Historically, such things tend to become distractions that inevitably lead to departures from the gospel."
The denial of systemic racism intertwined in the evangelical world is horrible here. They just deny it exists.
continuing....
Sadly most poor people are lured in, [I am guilty] with the promises of rich rewards after death, the messages about poverty---in the IFB, I was told obedience to God would bring the meeting of needs, and that I would be blessed for that obedience--and that "living right" brought prosperity to a life. I also was taught, that if someone was poor, it was God's will, systemic injustice was denied. I was taught jingoism that denied true realities of the economic system. The David Ramsey's of the world assured us all we had the "best economic system in the world". What a bunch of lies! Sadly after my trauma in Chicago and descent into poverty, I thought obedience to God, and "living right" and "doing right" would spare me me further poverty. I was not materialistic, I was fine with a peaceful simple life. However I know the messages I was given about money were all lies.
DeleteThere was this under-message almost in every church I've been in, that the wealthy were blessed by God, because they were 'better" people. There are rich people who are GOOD and kind people like every category of people there's good and bad, but I also noticed the subtle undertone of morality connected to money within churches, the wealthy were seen as automatically more moral. Here I saw some subtle racism where it was assumed that the poverty of certain groups was not caused by systemic injustice and racism but immorality among their numbers. This of course could be applied to non-minority people too but there was the racism behind these messages. The Alt-right politics with Trump definitely have advanced those racist ideas in some religious circles.
This idea that if your life had not worked out financially, there was reasons you were losing on God's blessings. As I have written on this blog, the prosperity gospel had infused everywhere, it just wasn't in Word of Faith churches. I was taught in the IFB several times, "Obey God and he will bless you," and material promises of blessings were attached in several sermons. I went to mainstream evangelical women's conferences where they taught that if you followed God's plans, for your life, the blessings would abound, of course they expanded this beyond the material, but that was included as well.
One thing that bothered me, beyond these teachings, is I noticed with growing trepidation, the religious solution in all my churches was to OBEY AUTHORITIES [even crooked and corrupt ones]. We were literally taught too, that all authorities had been placed by God [Romans 13] and one was to obey. I was against this saying the pastors had mistranslated and were teaching blind obedience to the "new world order" but one facet of all this blind obedience, is most evangelicals support the growing police state in the United States and were tough on crime types, who wanted incarceration increased and the penalties for crime heightened. I noticed most were for prisoners to be punished to the fullest extent of extreme laws and were not the types to support prison reformation or rehabilitation. This of course affects the African American community as the "New Jim Crow" definitely is in full force. I dare say that one reason the United States has the highest incarceration rate, what is it 2.5 million people relative to the population is the influence of evangelicalism and it's support of hard on crime edicts. continuing...
DeleteI saw African Americans in some of the churches I visited where they taught prosperity gospels, hard core Republican politics, and many of these other messages including "tough on crime" edicts. African Americans were rare in my IFBs, one community I lived in was so rural, but we had many hispanic people in that church. My last IFB did have a large African American family that visited on occasion and was there to hear the pastor advance war with Iran, and preached "Those who don't work don't eat". Many large evangelical churches I have visited including megachurches did have a sizeable African American population in them. Around my area, that tended to be the more Pentecostal churches and Assembly of God ones. I knew some African American people did attend local churches where they had more liberal preachers that did stand for civil rights and against racism; these churches mostly were predominantly "black churches" but there was also plenty of black people attending churches that were preaching hard core Republican politics, and supporting politics and policies that definitely seemed directly adverse to them.
I never was Republican, but I know as I sat in churches, hearing the promises of blessings by God, being taught that "morality" would bring it's own reward and a good life, and that I needed to trust in leaders and never agitate for "rights" [one pastor even went after disability rights], I drank that Kool-Aid too. What really stands out to me now, is how the main message of all these churches was "BELIEVE IN THE SYSTEM" and "OBEY".
I think about how Stockholm Syndrome plays in here and desperate people taught especially in our capitalistic society how everything that happens to them is "their fault" instead of taking a clear look at a system that is designed around injustice.
With the submissive personalities, in many areas of Christianity one is taught to be submissive. Submit to God, is on the roster but also in many churches submitting to man is too. All those verses and messages for 'slaves" [servants] to submit. All those messages about obeying "bosses" [they never taught the bible verses on just wages] All those messages about obeying politicians and the idea all leaders were "god chosen"
It does bring out a more submissive personality no matter your ethnic group or race. The authoritarian quality of Christianity [evangelical and fundamentalism being the most authoritarian] teaches not only submission to a strong God character but this includes by default submission to all other authorities.
I do think what you are seeing is some are rewarded now for conforming. "Don't rock the boat, don't be a rabble roster". Sadly in this world, those standing for freedom and liberation have paid the worse prices like Martin Luther King.
Just in case you do not notice, messages from slaveholder Christianity are prevalent in the United States, and there are many reasons why. Submissive people like these messages because they like having controlling people to make decisions for them and they love how their lives have been going so far. As I said earlier, poor whites and non-white people who made it in top universities and graduate schools tend to be submissive or traitors to people in their communities. Most of them are poor in money and poverty that they pray fervently and beseechingly to God for money, housing, and benefits.
ReplyDeleteWhen situations do not go right in their lives, poor and religious people would assume it was because God did not want them to have it rather than white supremacists who want to give them cookie crumbs for being cooperative and servile. Many poor people of all racial, ethnic backgrounds have submissive personalities. You do not have a passive or docile temperament so that your malignant narc relatives rejected you.
Abusive people and malignant narcs like these slaveholders messages, because they want to use God or the Bible as justifications for their decisions to close doors on opportunities in our lives and claim that it was God's plans or wills for our lives. These messages have been favored to toxic people, abusers, and white supremacists since it helped them to maintain control over submissive slaves, poor whites, and immigrants. Historically submissive immigrants, poor whites, and slaves tend not to protest.
The Southern Christian Churches in the United States created the slaveholders' version of Christianity during the Colonial American era, but messages intensified after the Emancipation Proclamation became law in 1863. Some planters and their wives who were abusive to their slaves did not want to pay for labor from poor whites, immigrants, and Chinese immigrants who were willing to work for low pay.
Before the Civil Wars, many slaves ran away from abusive masters and mistresses; furthermore, abusive masters or those who had an abusive wife were the least likely to have former slaves who would agree to stay with them, return to them after the war, or work for lower wages than what immigrants and poor whites expected. Because abusive masters and mistresses did not have slaves returning to them, they tend to support slaveholders' religion and support churches and pastors that agreed to teach slaveholders' version of Christianity. (cont.)
One thing I believe about religion now, is that it is used as a control mechanism, by the powers that be. Maybe some of my conspiracy past influences here, but religion definitely is serving the needs of the powerful in many ways. Politicians definitely influence the church people to vote a certain way and they've sold Trump, even perverted Trump who speaks of grabbing "pu***sies" to the religious set, so they know the propaganda works.
Deletecontinuing...
DeleteYou are correct that messages from "slaveholder" or what I have referred to as authoritarian Christianity are prevalent in the United States. I believe religion especially of the evangelical flavor is why the United State is regressing, especially was Western nations have brought more economic justice to the lives of their citizens and stability. Even the refusal for national health care rests on the religious influences.
The South will Rise Again they always said, and now the South is kicking this entire nation in the teeth. Ever wonder why we get these extreme religious and nutso politicians, that think everyone should be paid and worked like slaves, who aren't even supposed to have decent lives or any rights, this is where we are seeing the outcome of our history.
There's a reason in societies religion is used to keep people submissive. The authoritarianism of religion keeps the desired order of the most powerful. I think about now how as a woman I was taught that women should obey men and that having men in 'charge" was the natural order of things--by the way this message has totally infused even into the mainline churches in my area. I got in trouble yesterday telling some Christians, that these teachings were dangerous to women. All of us who sat in the pews, remember the constant exhortations to be humble. The message of "might makes right" is infused in this religion from the top down. The less powerful are told to submit to the more powerful.
When you add in internalized oppression that some minority and other groups hold, being indoctrinated they are "inferior" in some ways, toxic religion takes a hold of that and runs with it.
For some, the system works for them. for others not so much. Sadly many of the desperate are led to pray and beseech God. It can be a very painful place to be.
Desperately poor people of whatever race, have been beaten down often into submission. Sadly toxic religion is used to back up the status quo. So while people are paid unjust wages that do not pay for decent housing, health care or other needs, religion is used to tell them this is God's will and the "way things are supposed to be". The churches will teach them corrupt capitalism is the only system mandated by God and that evil socialists are godless and wanted to take their money away.
DeleteThe history of slavery is interesting too. Have you ever read how the slaves were preached too during the time of slavery? They used to use many of those bible verses regarding slaves, to tell them that was their "place mandated" by God. Of course the full blown racists would preach about Ham, and how black people being his descendants were being "punished" by God for being poor. I once was upset to hear this nonsense from a Christian guy I once knew and it made me angry, but there's plenty of modern day racists who believe this garbage.
One reason racism has become a worse problem in the United State is Trump followed the old formula used in the South previously especially during the time of Jim Crow, where he got the white working class, to blame minority groups for all their problems. Poor white were easily manipulated by rich white planters to turn against the black people around them as the rich white planters kept the poor white sharecroppers under their feet too. Poor whites being manipulated to vote against their own interest using racism to do so. Religion was part of this formula too, as Trump was sold as "God's choice".
One church that has far too much power, over American politics is the Southern Baptist Convention, they work with such groups such as Focus on the Family and the Dominionist Family Research Council. Their history with slavery and the rest is very interesting to explore.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention
At the same time, Poor whites and immigrants from European countries and China "competed" for low-paying, unskilled jobs to make money and to save money to get a piece of their American Dreams. These poor whites and immigrants who "competed" for jobs ended up detesting slaves who "held" the positions they wanted; hence, anti-black racism began as a result of competition for jobs that slaves "held." Later, some poor whites and immigrants moved to the West and began processes to create discriminatory housing laws, sundowner policies in some cities, and "segregating" schools by moving to a whites-only neighborhood, sending their children to private schools, or doing homeschooling. Slaveholders Christianity helped these people to engage in anti-black racism, segregation, and discrimination.
ReplyDeleteSouthern business owners, merchants, and planters wanted to pay nothing on labor, and getting "free laborers" from their former slaves was essential to them to cut down the costs of their businesses. Because Southern business owners "could not save money on labor," traders of these Southern businesses ended up holding negative attitudes toward former slaves when they started "paying more for merchandises" as a result of "paying for labor." Furthermore, Northerners and whites from other countries began to hold negative views toward African-descent people, and they began to support the system of white supremacy.
"Paying more for labor" created resentment and hatred that a few Northern whites began academic studies of black and whites biological and intellectual "differences," to engage in eugenics movements, to create laws against interracial marriages, and to provide rewards to docile blacks. Churches became an institution that helped maintain the system of white supremacy, Jim Crow laws, and pseudo-slavery of black and brown people today. Many poor people of all races ended up finding messages from slaveholders' religion appealing because it appeared to give hope to poor people. Most of these poor people today are descendants of poor whites and immigrants. When I warned them of slaveholders' religion that fooled them, they walked away from me.
Greedy business owners, merchants, and planters were willing to pay pastors and churches who would preach forgiveness, God's plans, God's wills, and submissiveness so poor whites, immigrants, and former slaves would not rebel or fight for civil rights and equality. Some black pastors who have submissive personalities, narcissism, and Uncle Tom mentality were willing to run conservative churches to "teach" African Americans that God had plans for their slavery and lowly stations in life. The purpose of these churches was to "calm" and "placate" former slaves and freedmen who lost their better lives so they would not protest for their civil rights, citizenship, voting rights, and properties. (cont.)
The purpose of the lynching of black people and white people who support liberation and freedom was to teach people not to protest; otherwise, the same things would happen to them. Lynching and mass incarceration quieted black and poor people that African Americans and poor people did not stop preachers from preaching slaveholder theology.
ReplyDeleteMajority of conservative Christian churches were complicit and guilty of participating in lynch mob and gruesome murder incidents. Some lynch victims were also victims of burning and cannibalism. Christian pastors were Ku Klux Klansmen and Grand Dragons (KKK leaders). The concepts of forgiveness, God's plans or wills for our lives, and God's wanting to change our hearts are examples of slaveholders theological concepts. White supremacists and Ku Klux Klan members love messages derived from the slaveholders' religion.
Many poor people in the United States are members of Christian churches that preach slaveholders' theology, and many docile people like having somebody to take care of them, make decisions for them, and support them. Churches helped these submissive people to find somebody who would take care of them and would let abusers take care of them. Passive people may not like being abused but would take abuse to receive money, jobs, and opportunities that non-submissive people could not get for refusing to submit to abuses and malignant narcs.
Hey Peep, I contacted my alcoholic narcissistic family because I'm in a very scary crisis-facing eviction. I've been away from them so long that I forgot just how insane they are, meaning they are cruel, withholding and violent. They really went the distance to cause serious problems for me, blaming me for their violence. They lied to family court and had my brother serve papers on me then he beat the living crap out of me. When I lived at my parents house, well I couldn't live - my mother would wake me up at 6am, pulling the covers off the bed, screaming in my face get a job, get a job and starting a physical fight with me very early in the morning. I was having trouble sleeping as it was. She would initiate it so I would retaliate and my brother and father could step in and assault me if I said anything they didn't like. I had been a crime victim, when I told her she said, too friggin bad about you. I forgot that when I've turned to them before in crisis - there was no concern for me and they made my life worse.
ReplyDeleteI was horribly shocked when my mother would scream at me, die, die, why don't you die. I was trying to reason with her.
Silly me, thinking I could reason with a crazy drunk. This is a very religious church going woman - one of my crimes is that I don't belong to their religion. Oh, gosh, why would I? I've been grateful to read about narcissist's and understand their tactics.
This family wounded me horribly and I was scagegoated by them- why would I ever contact them again? well, because they are my family. They have resources that I don't have.
Just had a phone message from my 87 year old alcoholic mother- the Queen Narc. The good thing was that I didn't pick up the phone and let it go to voice mail.It was a capricious snarky message. I had also called a brother and sister, no response yet. I wondered if they were coached to not call me or offer me any help.
When I spoke with another sibling I hadn't seen in decades they proceeded to list my crimes and interrogate me claiming they stood on their own two feet, blah blah- I guess one of my crimes is needing a loving caring family.
I guess I had some kind of slip reaching out to them and I can forgive myself for doing that but I don't have to call back. I'll just feel worse.
I wanted to make the connection with narcs and drunks hiding behind religion because this discussion is about religion.
What kind of God wants my mother to be abusive to her children? Or what kind of God wants this woman to continue to harm herself with alcohol and drugs?
I personally believe that religion was created to oppress women. To be funny we used to say, Opium is the religion of the masses :)
There are very good people in all religions, decent, kind, compassionate people. I just happen to be not related to them.
A friend who was very involved with various church groups thought there should be a division of mental health counseling for people who join churches and religions.
I think the main thing to remember is that narcs and other abusive people hide out in churches, religions and organizations.
It doesn't lessen my emotional pain or turmoil but I can forgive myself for forgetting who these people really are.
I really want them to redeem themselves, in fact, my sibling claims he's changed a lot - no he's still a toxic dangerous person as is my mother.
I have to continue to protect myself from them.
Thanks for your blog and keep it up, one day a book may come from it.
Hey I understand you contacting your horrible family, having homelessness loom and the desperation related to that, would lead many to make that decision. It's terrible they used your crisis to abuse you more. I hope you can find other housing with a friend or maybe can get another apartment or rental room. It sounds very stressful.
DeleteIt's horrible you were assaulted and they used the legal system against you. Yeah the denial of sleep is a big narc tool. I realize today one reason my health imploded so young, is I never got to sleep. Woken up in middle of the night with rants and raves, woken up very early in the morning even after a restaurant shift until 1am, etc etc. That is horribly abusive. Whose going to get a job too as they are having their confidence and health destroyed?
My mother used my raging brother and father as enforcers too like you whipping them up. Yeah they don't care if you were a crime victim, they could have even gloated about it. No empathy there. That's sick she screamed DIE DIE at you. :o Wow she was not hiding her hatred. I was told "I hope you go die" in a few fights too. It's a horrible thing to say to someone.
Oh man yours was religious too. Religion as cover. I had the holy Catholics who never missed a Mass, sister sharing pictures on Facebook of her daughter kneeling before Mary, kids getting rewards from the bishop, daughter's first communion with little white dress and tiara--that brought a memory back, my sister had the little white dress and celebration while I didn't though I am sure the Catholic school lined me up for it. religion.
I am glad you were able to learn about narcissism, scapegoating and figured out what your family is like I did. Yeah one thing all us ACONS have to figure out is society lies to us about families. I may be doing a new post based on an article I read...about this. We have to deal with REALITY, and the people we actually got in the biological roulette when we came up with snake eyes instead jackpot. Yeah forgive yourself, you got desperate, "maybe they will help this time".
I gave a ton of chances only to get kicked in the teeth only to come crawling back too many times. They sabotage scapegoats for life long poverty--and then turn around and abuse them for it. Yeah learn from this mistake and don't contact them again. I've been there too. I do hate the fact in my past, I crawled to mine, and it killed me inside.
Wow you got an old one, I keep hearing about these narcs living to very ripe old ages to torture people. Even drinking like fish and smoking like chimneys.
continuing....
DeleteYour siblings were probably coached to offer you no help or if they did the other narcs would punish them. In my family I was always blamed for bosses laying off my husband or my own illnesses, whatever went wrong was all my fault. I sure don't miss being away from that crud.
Oh I heard the "we work hard, we stand on our two feet' stuff. Yeah that's awful The fact of the matter is they don't care. Competition comes first and the others know when one goes lower, they go higher. It really is a sick system.
Yeah don't call them back. 6 years in, I am free of any phone calls. Narcs do use religion as a cover. While I have met very kind and loving Christians who were and are REAL people, I met a lot of toxic people who use religion to play cover up. I wonder what kind of God allows people to born to monsters? I still haven't figure that out. There's too much suffering in this world and much of it needless. I don't think much of God anymore if one did exist, it lets too many people down, and seems to just want to drink humanity's tears. Even the planet starting to crack up because humans want to eat, live at temperatures that are tolerable, and procreate, seems like very poor poor planning on the behalf of any would be "designer".
I have some unusual thoughts about the family structure and how it is so glorified when more and more it just seems like a biological prison, and DNA brings no more chance of love or being cared about more then meeting some stranger on the street.
I came to believe that religion was created to oppress people and set up the status quo for the powerful and chief among those goals was subjugating the women.
I agree about the opium of the masses. Yeah some very good people are in religion. Some close out the self righteous and bad stuff and try to pick out the good.
I think there should be special counselors out there for spiritual abuse, those leaving religion and cults. We really need them. There is one group called "Recovery From Religion" that provides a few sources on line but these resources are few and far between.
Yeah a lot of narcs and sociopaths do use religion to give themselves a nice cover and play the superficial game.
Yes continue to protect yourself from your family. Even 6 years in, I know I have to, probably for the rest of my life. Many people do make the mistake in desperate moments, thinking "maybe this time they will care" we are indoctrinated by society to see family as a safe place and home to run to as well, but this is not true for everyone. Thank you for your kind words. :) I hope you do find safe and stable housing.
Thanks Peep- OMG the sleep thing. Wow, you get it - I would be so shaken up. No safe place at all - Normal people do not wake their children up at 2am to go wash a dish that was already clean. Normal people don't scream and yell at 3am unless it's to yell Fire. Why couldn't my mother just let me sleep, nap, rest, read library books? If we napped in the afternoon we were drug addicts.
ReplyDeleteMy family is very Catholic. The brother who was bullied and tortured went on to attempt suicide multiple times with multiple stays in mental hospitals he's now a deacon in his church.(source- online snooping) He was married once before but this 2nd wife bought the story line about our parents hook line and sinker. Claimed that our father was her best friend. Really? A wife/child beater raging drunk pedophile was your best friend?
I paid nearly a month's rent to a mover to get about 1/3 of my things into storage- not sure that I will be able to get the rest of my things back ever. Then went to the city homeless assistance program where I had an appointment set up by Catholic Charities. The social worker had told me one thing- that I could get back into my apartment- then the intake worker told me another. almost as if she was trying to further upset me. Here I was all grimy from the filthy van, move, not slept at all, with my bulging suitcase and yes I'm really truly homeless. Gulp. Intake worker seemed annoyed and incredulous that I had told the original person who called me that I booked an air bnb for the week. Why wouldn't I? She asked me a few times, don't you have any friends or family to stay with? I am very scared. Does this mean I will be even more homeless like sleeping outside?
No I will not contact the heartless narcs - Here at the air bnb where she's making an exception for me to boil water for tea. No kitchen privileges- in my haste to find a cheap place I over looked this.
I guess the best thing I can do is to go back to sleep for now.
And here's the kicker, I am old enough to be a grandmother but am still bruised that my mother didn't call back to see how I made out. No calls from siblings either. It's too painful to absorb that they really truly do not care whether I live or die.
Thank you for your support. No, I can only contact so called family when I am in a strong place.
Yes years and years of sleep deprivation which by the way is a major factor in severe obesity. Never going into a deep stage of sleep and then the sleep apnea untreated piled on weight too. They have done research where abused kids are more likely to become obese and I wonder if this is from sleep deprivation. Drunk parents stumbling home, no naps allowed, late bed times, woken up all the time. Yeah normal people do not wake kids up at 2 am and 4 am. In my case normal people let a teenager that worked until 1am at a restaurant sleep in instead of waking them up at 6 or 7am.
DeleteI was never allowed to rest or sleep or even be LEFT ALONE in my room, they had to always be bothering me. Even finding time to read was mostly done at school.
I barely remember my teenaged bedrooms always having to do housework, and never able to have private time.
Sorry to hear yours was uber Catholic. Ugh. Well some of my younger relatives deconverted and don't go to church but they'd never dare speak out against the Almighty Catholic church in the face of the narcs and go through the motions for the family's sake. Others like my GC N sister have followed the same religious road.
Sounds like your brother was messed up too. He was turned against you too? I am not surprised I saw fellow scapegoats turned on me too. I wonder if his wife was a malignant narc too, getting close to the parents, narcs identify with one another.
Glad you managed to get some things into storage. Some of those social workers and others will use weird rules against you. One week at an airbnb does not mean not being homeless but they will use nits like that to refuse help. That's too bad, you don't have kitchen privileges, of course that makes acquiring food more expensive. Social workers often seem clueless acting like everyone has friends and family to immediately move in with. Those social networks aren't the same anymore. Some people ever friend they have lives long distance or are too poor or not in a position to take them in.
Yeah I know if I ever became homeless, mine would gloat. Disability is at least a hedge against street living in the USA though I know people on SSI who end up homeless because it is too little. I believe if a "family' allows one member to end up homeless and does nothing, then that's basically not a family anymore. I still remember when my mother forced my ex sister in law, to go to a homeless shelter with two kids in tow, at least said SIL had parents when they were still alive that would help her. Yeah I had to face facts too, that mine did not care if I lived or died. I mean it was just facing the facts. I was "too poor' and had become just a shame and "embarrasment" to them. I know this is difficult and when I was going no contact facing these realities was not always easy. Consider never contacting them again, but that is up to you. Remember they will abuse someone even in a strong place. I do hope things get better for you.
Thanks for your support. I will wait to hear from narcs before I contact them. Well in less than 24 hours air bnb lady/single mother went mental and I had to leave. Scary, I didn't feel safe taking a shower there. I think she was doing drugs. At a friends house for now. Exhausted
DeleteI believe if a "family' allows one member to end up homeless and does nothing, then that's basically not a family anymore.
ReplyDeleteWell said, if horribly painful. and what if they make you homeless? Some families are worse than no families, at least you get sympathy for being an orphan