There's a movie coming out next week, Hereditary. I saw the trailer back in February as it got huge buzz at Sundance. Immediately, I got a sense that there were overlays of malignant narcissism threaded into this dark family drama/horror tale.
From all accounts, Hereditary is a game changer. They are calling it our generation's Exorcist and more.
Toni Collette plays the main character, Annie. Her mother, I've guessed early on, is a malignant narcissist/psychopath, who brings evil to this family.
I predict after this movie comes out on June 8th, Narcissist support channels will be discussing this movie as it relates to narc abuse and evil.
Here's a clip I just found where Annie (Toni Collette) discusses her mother. Listen to the language she uses. She even uses the ACON term - No Contact Rule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sYeDueja68
I'm going to try and see this movie next week. May have to leave movie, if it's too triggering.
Wow....definitely need to see that one. Horror movie as metaphor of the horrors propagated by a narcissist? Some people feel HAUNTED by theirs even after the narcissist dies. There's probably plenty of pain left for generations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wWKNij_1M
Speaking of God being a narcissist, this video I posted here sums up why I deconverted in so many words. There was overlap from the healing from abuse, and realizing the character who scared me with hell didn't seem to be my friend either and made me feel the same way the narcs did, nothing was ever good enough and threats constantly. I have nightmares with my mother and family in it as starring characters. They lessened with no contact but there remains this feeling of evil people laying in wait for me because the creeps still know where I live. Narcissism is a horror.
"hat concept is, at least, what Hereditary is exploring beneath the horror. Like other supernatural horror films about parents and children — Rosemary’s Baby, Carrie, The Witch, and many more — Hereditary is obsessed with how our parentage, our DNA, the things we can’t change about ourselves shape our future.
And for 21st-century Americans, primed to believe that we can choose how we want to conduct our lives regardless of what kind of family we come from, the idea that we actually don’t control our own destinies is truly horrifying. We’d like to believe we’re the captains of our own ships, the masters of our own fate — that we can overcome our DNA and our upbringing to become whoever we want to be. (To that point, there’s a way to read Hereditary as being about the fear of inheriting a parent’s mental illness, and while that’s definitely not its only point, it adds an extra layer of fear to the film.)
But what if, Hereditary asks, that’s all wrong? What if we will all eventually succumb to the fate written in our genes and in our stars?
That way lies madness. But madness, of a kind, is exactly what Hereditary is after. The movie lingers in the mind and sits like a lump in the soul. And it’s deliciously twisted along the way. Hereditary has nightmare fodder to spare, and nobody, in the end, gets to escape.
There's liberal churches of course like the UU and other liberal Christian churches that have sought to make God kinder and one of love though they have to pick and choose from the bible that aren't but I would say most "conservative" evangelical etc, churches are. What gets me is the things they would tell me, like when people asked "Well why did God have all those people in the OT killed" they'd always respond this way, and it was no explanation, just an excuse for evil...
"Further more, if God is our creator, it is His right to destroy His creations as He sees fit"
"if God is our creator, it is His right to destroy His creations as He sees fit"
Yeah, that's actually the same as abusive parents saying, "I've brought you into this world, and I can take you out." That's not how it works among humans, so why should one have to take it from any other beings?
One of the major items that broke religion for me was the idea that we are mortal etc., because of Adam and Eve's original sin. Already at age 8-10, that didn't seem fair to me. Why should *I* have to bear the consequences for someone else's sins?! Besides, science seemed a more plausible explanation for the world.
Be that as it may, my narc parents insisted that I complete the Catholic rituals up to confirmation, not because they are religious - they aren't - but because it was just what you were supposed to do in our environment. When, as a budding atheist, I rebelled against attending Sunday school, I was physically beaten into compliance, with the preceding "argument" being that I should go to Sunday school in order to "have a church wedding" when I grew up. So much for spirituality; I wasn't beaten for any real belief - as bad as that would have been, it would be less bad than this, in my view - but merely for social conformity. An empty shell of a reason.
True to their no-substance ways, my parents did promise (or, rather, angrily dismiss me) that once I was confirmed, I'd no longer have to regularly attend church. I took their word for it and, after confirmation at age 12, never again pretended to be a believer.
Nenad, did you read my article where I wrote about having to do confirmation as a young atheist? I think a lot of these religious rituals are done for appearances. Sounds like your parents followed the same track though they were more liberal about forcing you to go to church.
Yeah I think too being punished for Adam and Eve's "sin" too was a load of garbage. I never took the Adam and Eve story literally or Noah, which got me in trouble a few times at fundie church especially when I got into some UU inspired explanation of the bible story and told a few fellow Christians, the story is talking about when humans attain consciousness and self awareness above the animals. Of course later since deprogramming myself out of Christianity, I thought why are the punishments so harsh for being human then? So you learn right and wrong but if you do anything wrong and don't follow these exact steps you have to burn for eternity? That's kind of sick isn't it. Catholicism had the Original sin stuff which said every baby was born evil, while the fundies and Protestants lightened up that angle of it and said babies would go to heaven if they died, the idea remained that us humans were evil just for existing.
Another parallel between narc pathology and organized religion is projection. Spoiler alert: "Hereditary" involves a demon supplicated for wealth. As stated in a MUCH more pleasant movie about hereditary witches (Practical Magic, lol), "There's no devil in the Craft." Demonology is a very Catholic obsession. It stands to reason, in true narc fashion, such dark fascinations were projected on poor old midwives, herbalists and folklore believing country dwellers - DARVO at its most horrific and murderous extreme. Reading reviews about Hereditary and watching youtube videos about What the Vatican Doesn't Want You To Know" (their mind boggling wealth) made my head spin like Linda Blair! Lol
When I was a fundie Christian I believe the Catholic church was the whore of Babylon and I got big into studying Catholic inspired conspiracy. LOL I probably have seen videos like "What the Vatican Doesn't Want You to Know". I even remember having discussions with fellow fundies, about if the Pope was the Antichrist or a would be Pope. LOL My view of the Catholic church of course is different now, still don't like it, the Vatican is a cesspool of corruption and wealth but yeah google things like "Red Mass" and "Al Smith dinner" where our politicians go pay homage to the Catholic leadership. It's not just the religious fundies one has to worry about theocracy and Dominionism from.
All those sex scandals too. I even read Malachi Martin books and websites about who really was "who". That said, while the Protestants and fundamentalists tried to undo some of the Catholic church's worse they have plenty of their own scandals.
With the horror moves, I had some strange thoughts, remember I am an Aspie here. Christianity needs the devil to survive. Think about this, they scared me with tales of Satan, and telling me Satan ruled this planet and that demons were real [deliverance ministry etc] Sometimes I have asked myself since deconverting, how did you end up so superstitious in this modern age? Anyhow, Satan is the needed fall-guy, the needed nemesis. I made a joke to my husband when watching some scary horror movie trailer on TV, this one had demons and dolls with spinning heads and all sorts of other shit, and said, I wonder if churches donate to these movies, to scare teens about demons and the supernatural, to get them to go to church and convert. I remember years ago, finding out the Catholic church had experts and consultants on the Exorcist, and I think that was more then just handing over how the exorcist rituals were done.
Superman needed Lex Luther like Yahweh needs Beezelbub.
The Catholic church yes pushes the demonology. I believe uber-Catholicism set me up for the later fundie trip I took I really do. I had Catholic school and daily religion classes for YEARS. Mass three times a week. Sure vatican II just kicked in but we had the bloodied statues in the school halls and much of the old stuff.
I dabbled in Wicca and studying goddess theology during my first set of UU years, even read StarHawk books. So I knew that most midwives, herbalists, etc, followed a nature oriented religion, and now I have new thoughts definitely about how the dark stuff was projected on them. I read books like "The Skeptical Feminist" and "Changing of the gods" by Naomi Goldberg. Both are still on my shelf right next to the Christian books. As a Christian they had told me these books are evil and Satan inspired, but I was rereading them recently. I agree with you about projection here, I really do. I was always outraged against the Inquisition [against women and "witches"] but of course the fundies said that was a product of the "whore of babylon" the Catholics and Puritans with too much resultant Catholic theology. To be honest, the way the religious right is going in this country, they are no different evangelical or not. The same projection and evil is there. if you think about it a religion that sees everyone as evil from birth, and ruled by Satan has some serious problems.
Duality is a something that Christians wrote against especially on conspiracy websites, but here, they ignored their own active participation in it.
I got into an odd discussion, forget in what context at UU church, we have these discussions, I talked about Christianity growing as humanity went from tribes into nation states, and in doing so, society became more patriarchial and control and obedience oriented, and it changed religions. Maybe I read too much Margot Alder, and Naomi Goldberg but they definitely were on to something. What controls humans....FEAR.
What creates fear Satan and demons.
I also got into a recent conversation with my husband about how I realized I could not love a God that ruled by fear and extreme punishments [hell] so the other video done by darkmatter2525 really hit home and this one too all at the same time. I said to husband if I die, and I am wrong and meet Yahweh, and he wants to send me to hell for "falling away", I will be saying "I could not worship or love a God that wanted to burn people for eternity".
ah that deliverance minister was always going on about "witches". I remember once we got into a fight, where I told her most Wiccan's were people who just wanted to worship nature, and they followed the "goddess" and it was a whole other religion that had nothing to do with Satan, but she kept insisting "witches" were all the underlings to the Satanists, and it got really confusing. Her obsession with Satanic holidays and other weird stuff remains. She has a website, no I won't link to it here. Fear runs her religious life. Christianity is based in fear. outside of a few liberal circles, fear and fear of death is what runs the entire show. I believe our human society is going a certain negative way from all this fear. I think in my own personal life, I got sick of being afraid. I didn't want it anymore in my religion.
My husband's cousins all went to Malta this summer, to see the island country where husband's dad and their mothers were born and raised. They were also looking a bit for some of the family connections that must still be there. One cousin kept sending back photos of gold-encrusted, marble Catholic churches decorated with paintings from the Old Masters from the trip. You don't know how hard it was to hold my tongue! On an island where it is all rock and sand, where everything must be imported and rain caught to drink, they put all this money into churches? Oy!
Wow with those churches in Malta! Reminds me of the gold encrusted churches I saw in pictures in Peru, built by slave labor and the poor slaves mining for gold. Yeah they put big time money into those places even among very poor populations. Yeah I probably would have been biting my tongue too. Thanks, I think I am. The fear and shame took a massive toll over the years.
Great analysis, Peep! I avoid the W label for all the baggage it carries. I don't want to volunteer to be a target for small minds in a small town, because I prefer Nature's book to human ego and error claiming to be "Holy Writ." Yes, the fear continues but we have the agency to walk away from f***wits! And of course there are narcs aplenty in alternative spiritualities as well, from Witchier than thou priestesses to spoiled snowflake suburban shamans! Thanks for sharing a great video, your experiences & a forum for discussion. Recognizing religious beliefs and behavior in terms of an abusive family will help many make a huge step towards critical thinking, self-respect and freedom.
Thanks anon, I appreciate it. I can understand avoiding the W label, especially in today's world. Yes I have to be cautious in a very conservative small town. Agree about the fear, it's better to get away from those who instill fear as a measure of control. I agree about narcs in alternative spiritualities. Every religion, philosophy even atheism has them. Yes all these things definitely relate, the abusive families, any abusive religions, the power over human beings and the way people wield that power.
This film helped me to zero in on my view of good and evil. Of course, being an atheist, I do not believe in evil. So those words do not really have meaning to me. Instead, I see the universe in terms of order versus chaos or entropy. Order is equivalent to learning, discoveries that explain the universe, or actions that bring order to a situation. So feeding the poor is good, as it brings order to the social group. Entropy is equivalent to starvation, the fear and behaviors that starvation brings, the crime it will encourage. That chaos is what entropy looks like in a social group. For those who are concerned about narcissism, the narcissist tries to increase chaos and decrease order. Love is order, peace. This is how science and metaphysics come together in my head.
I was posting on a deconversion board on Facebook, and told them, I didn't believe in sin. [I have said I believe in evil but I think I define it closer to the way you do, where it means chaos] Sin to me while it brings up some harmful things of "chaos" ie everyone can agree murder is Wrong or "evil" aka chaotic--anti-order, a lot of things deemed sin, was cultural mores, and societal taboos and traditions. I agree helping the poor brings order, letting people starve brings entropy. Sure narcissists create chaos, they hate order and peace. There are those who have written of order and science being married together in a new spirituality. Star Trek explored these issues, like when Seven of Nine contacted an alien life that had perfect order and was entranced on Voyager.
SO CHECK THIS OUT!
ReplyDeleteThere's a movie coming out next week, Hereditary. I saw the trailer back in February as it got huge buzz at Sundance. Immediately, I got a sense that there were overlays of malignant narcissism threaded into this dark family drama/horror tale.
From all accounts, Hereditary is a game changer. They are calling it our generation's Exorcist and more.
Toni Collette plays the main character, Annie. Her mother, I've guessed early on, is a malignant narcissist/psychopath, who brings evil to this family.
I predict after this movie comes out on June 8th, Narcissist support channels will be discussing this movie as it relates to narc abuse and evil.
Here's a clip I just found where Annie (Toni Collette) discusses her mother. Listen to the language she uses. She even uses the ACON term - No Contact Rule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sYeDueja68
I'm going to try and see this movie next week. May have to leave movie, if it's too triggering.
Wow....definitely need to see that one. Horror movie as metaphor of the horrors propagated by a narcissist? Some people feel HAUNTED by theirs even after the narcissist dies. There's probably plenty of pain left for generations.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wWKNij_1M
Speaking of God being a narcissist, this video I posted here sums up why I deconverted in so many words. There was overlap from the healing from abuse, and realizing the character who scared me with hell didn't seem to be my friend either and made me feel the same way the narcs did, nothing was ever good enough and threats constantly. I have nightmares with my mother and family in it as starring characters. They lessened with no contact but there remains this feeling of evil people laying in wait for me because the creeps still know where I live. Narcissism is a horror.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wWKNij_1M
Delete"hat concept is, at least, what Hereditary is exploring beneath the horror. Like other supernatural horror films about parents and children — Rosemary’s Baby, Carrie, The Witch, and many more — Hereditary is obsessed with how our parentage, our DNA, the things we can’t change about ourselves shape our future.
And for 21st-century Americans, primed to believe that we can choose how we want to conduct our lives regardless of what kind of family we come from, the idea that we actually don’t control our own destinies is truly horrifying. We’d like to believe we’re the captains of our own ships, the masters of our own fate — that we can overcome our DNA and our upbringing to become whoever we want to be. (To that point, there’s a way to read Hereditary as being about the fear of inheriting a parent’s mental illness, and while that’s definitely not its only point, it adds an extra layer of fear to the film.)
But what if, Hereditary asks, that’s all wrong? What if we will all eventually succumb to the fate written in our genes and in our stars?
That way lies madness. But madness, of a kind, is exactly what Hereditary is after. The movie lingers in the mind and sits like a lump in the soul. And it’s deliciously twisted along the way. Hereditary has nightmare fodder to spare, and nobody, in the end, gets to escape.
Hereditary opens in theaters on June 8."
Interesting idea that the clergy and churches are flying monkeys for God the Narcissist.
ReplyDeleteThere's liberal churches of course like the UU and other liberal Christian churches that have sought to make God kinder and one of love though they have to pick and choose from the bible that aren't but I would say most "conservative" evangelical etc, churches are. What gets me is the things they would tell me, like when people asked "Well why did God have all those people in the OT killed" they'd always respond this way, and it was no explanation, just an excuse for evil...
Delete"Further more, if God is our creator, it is His right to destroy His creations as He sees fit"
"if God is our creator, it is His right to destroy His creations as He sees fit"
DeleteYeah, that's actually the same as abusive parents saying, "I've brought you into this world, and I can take you out." That's not how it works among humans, so why should one have to take it from any other beings?
One of the major items that broke religion for me was the idea that we are mortal etc., because of Adam and Eve's original sin. Already at age 8-10, that didn't seem fair to me. Why should *I* have to bear the consequences for someone else's sins?! Besides, science seemed a more plausible explanation for the world.
Be that as it may, my narc parents insisted that I complete the Catholic rituals up to confirmation, not because they are religious - they aren't - but because it was just what you were supposed to do in our environment. When, as a budding atheist, I rebelled against attending Sunday school, I was physically beaten into compliance, with the preceding "argument" being that I should go to Sunday school in order to "have a church wedding" when I grew up. So much for spirituality; I wasn't beaten for any real belief - as bad as that would have been, it would be less bad than this, in my view - but merely for social conformity. An empty shell of a reason.
True to their no-substance ways, my parents did promise (or, rather, angrily dismiss me) that once I was confirmed, I'd no longer have to regularly attend church. I took their word for it and, after confirmation at age 12, never again pretended to be a believer.
Nenad, did you read my article where I wrote about having to do confirmation as a young atheist? I think a lot of these religious rituals are done for appearances. Sounds like your parents followed the same track though they were more liberal about forcing you to go to church.
DeleteYeah I think too being punished for Adam and Eve's "sin" too was a load of garbage. I never took the Adam and Eve story literally or Noah, which got me in trouble a few times at fundie church especially when I got into some UU inspired explanation of the bible story and told a few fellow Christians, the story is talking about when humans attain consciousness and self awareness above the animals. Of course later since deprogramming myself out of Christianity, I thought why are the punishments so harsh for being human then? So you learn right and wrong but if you do anything wrong and don't follow these exact steps you have to burn for eternity? That's kind of sick isn't it. Catholicism had the Original sin stuff which said every baby was born evil, while the fundies and Protestants lightened up that angle of it and said babies would go to heaven if they died, the idea remained that us humans were evil just for existing.
Another parallel between narc pathology and organized religion is projection. Spoiler alert: "Hereditary" involves a demon supplicated for wealth. As stated in a MUCH more pleasant movie about hereditary witches (Practical Magic, lol), "There's no devil in the Craft." Demonology is a very Catholic obsession. It stands to reason, in true narc fashion, such dark fascinations were projected on poor old midwives, herbalists and folklore believing country dwellers - DARVO at its most horrific and murderous extreme. Reading reviews about Hereditary and watching youtube videos about What the Vatican Doesn't Want You To Know" (their mind boggling wealth) made my head spin like Linda Blair! Lol
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a fundie Christian I believe the Catholic church was the whore of Babylon and I got big into studying Catholic inspired conspiracy. LOL I probably have seen videos like "What the Vatican Doesn't Want You to Know". I even remember having discussions with fellow fundies, about if the Pope was the Antichrist or a would be Pope. LOL My view of the Catholic church of course is different now, still don't like it, the Vatican is a cesspool of corruption and wealth but yeah google things like "Red Mass" and "Al Smith dinner" where our politicians go pay homage to the Catholic leadership. It's not just the religious fundies one has to worry about theocracy and Dominionism from.
DeleteAll those sex scandals too. I even read Malachi Martin books and websites about who really was "who". That said, while the Protestants and fundamentalists tried to undo some of the Catholic church's worse they have plenty of their own scandals.
With the horror moves, I had some strange thoughts, remember I am an Aspie here. Christianity needs the devil to survive. Think about this, they scared me with tales of Satan, and telling me Satan ruled this planet and that demons were real [deliverance ministry etc] Sometimes I have asked myself since deconverting, how did you end up so superstitious in this modern age? Anyhow, Satan is the needed fall-guy, the needed nemesis. I made a joke to my husband when watching some scary horror movie trailer on TV, this one had demons and dolls with spinning heads and all sorts of other shit, and said, I wonder if churches donate to these movies, to scare teens about demons and the supernatural, to get them to go to church and convert. I remember years ago, finding out the Catholic church had experts and consultants on the Exorcist, and I think that was more then just handing over how the exorcist rituals were done.
Superman needed Lex Luther like Yahweh needs Beezelbub.
DeleteThe Catholic church yes pushes the demonology. I believe uber-Catholicism set me up for the later fundie trip I took I really do. I had Catholic school and daily religion classes for YEARS. Mass three times a week. Sure vatican II just kicked in but we had the bloodied statues in the school halls and much of the old stuff.
I dabbled in Wicca and studying goddess theology during my first set of UU years, even read StarHawk books. So I knew that most midwives, herbalists, etc, followed a nature oriented religion, and now I have new thoughts definitely about how the dark stuff was projected on them. I read books like "The Skeptical Feminist" and "Changing of the gods" by Naomi Goldberg. Both are still on my shelf right next to the Christian books. As a Christian they had told me these books are evil and Satan inspired, but I was rereading them recently. I agree with you about projection here, I really do. I was always outraged against the Inquisition [against women and "witches"] but of course the fundies said that was a product of the "whore of babylon" the Catholics and Puritans with too much resultant Catholic theology. To be honest, the way the religious right is going in this country, they are no different evangelical or not. The same projection and evil is there. if you think about it a religion that sees everyone as evil from birth, and ruled by Satan has some serious problems.
Duality is a something that Christians wrote against especially on conspiracy websites, but here, they ignored their own active participation in it.
I got into an odd discussion, forget in what context at UU church, we have these discussions, I talked about Christianity growing as humanity went from tribes into nation states, and in doing so, society became more patriarchial and control and obedience oriented, and it changed religions. Maybe I read too much Margot Alder, and Naomi Goldberg but they definitely were on to something. What controls humans....FEAR.
What creates fear Satan and demons.
I also got into a recent conversation with my husband about how I realized I could not love a God that ruled by fear and extreme punishments [hell] so the other video done by darkmatter2525 really hit home and this one too all at the same time. I said to husband if I die, and I am wrong and meet Yahweh, and he wants to send me to hell for "falling away", I will be saying "I could not worship or love a God that wanted to burn people for eternity".
ah that deliverance minister was always going on about "witches". I remember once we got into a fight, where I told her most Wiccan's were people who just wanted to worship nature, and they followed the "goddess" and it was a whole other religion that had nothing to do with Satan, but she kept insisting "witches" were all the underlings to the Satanists, and it got really confusing. Her obsession with Satanic holidays and other weird stuff remains. She has a website, no I won't link to it here. Fear runs her religious life. Christianity is based in fear. outside of a few liberal circles, fear and fear of death is what runs the entire show. I believe our human society is going a certain negative way from all this fear. I think in my own personal life, I got sick of being afraid. I didn't want it anymore in my religion.
My husband's cousins all went to Malta this summer, to see the island country where husband's dad and their mothers were born and raised. They were also looking a bit for some of the family connections that must still be there. One cousin kept sending back photos of gold-encrusted, marble Catholic churches decorated with paintings from the Old Masters from the trip. You don't know how hard it was to hold my tongue! On an island where it is all rock and sand, where everything must be imported and rain caught to drink, they put all this money into churches? Oy!
DeleteYou are so better off without it. Fear leads to shame, which is the soul-killer!
DeleteWow with those churches in Malta! Reminds me of the gold encrusted churches I saw in pictures in Peru, built by slave labor and the poor slaves mining for gold. Yeah they put big time money into those places even among very poor populations. Yeah I probably would have been biting my tongue too. Thanks, I think I am. The fear and shame took a massive toll over the years.
DeletePer the above narcissists rule by fear....
ReplyDeleteGreat analysis, Peep! I avoid the W label for all the baggage it carries. I don't want to volunteer to be a target for small minds in a small town, because I prefer Nature's book to human ego and error claiming to be "Holy Writ." Yes, the fear continues but we have the agency to walk away from f***wits! And of course there are narcs aplenty in alternative spiritualities as well, from Witchier than thou priestesses to spoiled snowflake suburban shamans! Thanks for sharing a great video, your experiences & a forum for discussion. Recognizing religious beliefs and behavior in terms of an abusive family will help many make a huge step towards critical thinking, self-respect and freedom.
ReplyDeleteThanks anon, I appreciate it. I can understand avoiding the W label, especially in today's world. Yes I have to be cautious in a very conservative small town. Agree about the fear, it's better to get away from those who instill fear as a measure of control. I agree about narcs in alternative spiritualities. Every religion, philosophy even atheism has them. Yes all these things definitely relate, the abusive families, any abusive religions, the power over human beings and the way people wield that power.
DeleteThis film helped me to zero in on my view of good and evil. Of course, being an atheist, I do not believe in evil. So those words do not really have meaning to me. Instead, I see the universe in terms of order versus chaos or entropy. Order is equivalent to learning, discoveries that explain the universe, or actions that bring order to a situation. So feeding the poor is good, as it brings order to the social group. Entropy is equivalent to starvation, the fear and behaviors that starvation brings, the crime it will encourage. That chaos is what entropy looks like in a social group. For those who are concerned about narcissism, the narcissist tries to increase chaos and decrease order. Love is order, peace. This is how science and metaphysics come together in my head.
ReplyDeleteI was posting on a deconversion board on Facebook, and told them, I didn't believe in sin. [I have said I believe in evil but I think I define it closer to the way you do, where it means chaos] Sin to me while it brings up some harmful things of "chaos" ie everyone can agree murder is Wrong or "evil" aka chaotic--anti-order, a lot of things deemed sin, was cultural mores, and societal taboos and traditions. I agree helping the poor brings order, letting people starve brings entropy. Sure narcissists create chaos, they hate order and peace. There are those who have written of order and science being married together in a new spirituality. Star Trek explored these issues, like when Seven of Nine contacted an alien life that had perfect order and was entranced on Voyager.
Delete