A Response to My Estranged Parents Article From Lise of Misadventures with Angry Alcoholics, Bullies and Narcissists

                  there are a few cases this doesn't apply to, but  it applies to most. 

Peep's Article on Adult Children and the "No Contact" Trend With Parents in the USA. Is Narcissism Really Behind It?

Here's the article Lise was responding to:

Backlash Against No Contact

Thanks for talking about my Fat Pat book too! Yes that book zine talks about how and why I left. Two friends read my book, and told me, "My God, we don't know how you survived!" I wrote the book as fiction and with humor, but the story speaks for itself!

Lise's article goes into many details about "going no contact" and why it has spread and the reaction of estranged parents. Yes, the estranged parents are in an uproar! I have their pages appear all over my social media. I am noticing growth among these pages, there are thousands of posts of outraged parents. There's a FEW who seem more innocent, their child left because they were a conservative and the child was liberal and vice a versa. There were religious disagreements, sometimes an adult child will leave parents behind if their life doesn't turn out, they have legal problems, time in jail, substance abuse problems and they don't want to include Mom and Dad in those problems. The majority of the estranged parents seem angry with an inability to see things from their adult children's perspective with possible NPD in the mix.

 Lise has a lot of good advice for the parents, who are lamenting their children going no contact. She also talks about how many of the estranged parents are retaliating against their adult children who have left. I noticed that too. Their anger isn't the type to bring reconciliation but seems rooted in revenge and "might makes right" attitudes.

"Many of these parents feel they have been really good parents and that therapists are mistaken in suggesting or supporting "no contact" as an answer to their child's distress. 

And some of them are taunting their children too: "Just you wait and see! I'm going to have a perfectly peaceful happy life without you! In fact, I'm going to forget you ever existed! My life is mine going forward and you are never going disrupt it with your complaining and issues ever again!" 

I have no problem with parents "finding a way to be happy without their children", but the taunt will never build a bridge should you ever want them back, or to teach them about good "bridge building" or "what reconciliation looks like". Maybe you don't want them back ever again, and that's your choice, but make sure it is a choice that you can live with for the rest of your life as taunting is very unlikely to change the trajectory of "no contact" that your child has initiated." 

I saw many posts on these boards where the attitude was "I don't need you!", I'm going to be happy!" There is a lot of economic boasting with some who are in the upper classes, "I'm going to take that trip, or that cruise or redecorate my house!" After I left and went no contact there was taunting. Some may remember this  old post, "My Second Daughter".  she mocked me on social media where most of the family would have seen it. I had her blocked but was told about the post from a friend who warned me that a high school mate, who was friends with my mother and sister was betraying me. Some things filtered back to me from family members before I went no contact from the entire family. Her entire stance was "I never did anything wrong." and she told other family members I was "paranoid" and "making things up." Because my mother was so severe in her would be Cluster B disorders, there wasn't even going to be pretend apologies or any attempts to deal with the two page letter I had mailed her of why I was leaving and said she could write to an email I left her, "although you need to treat me like a human for once". That email was never written to. I had left an opening, she never took it. I knew she would not. 

Lise is right that it is about power, and control and the psychopathic ones [which I suspect applies to my own] will never have regret or regret in hurting someone. They don't have the necessary empathy for any true reconciliation to be possible. They expect you to get back in line with no work, effort, giving or change from their end.  

The taunting on these boards is horrible and Lise mentions that too:

Parental taunting of your own children or any child is a narcissistic trait, and its another reason why you may not want to use it (it may be used as proof for your child), even if you feel angry and want to lash out. So is retaliatory behavior. It can peg you as a narcissist and give a child proof. 

I noticed the taunting, and it could be triggering to see some of these boards showing up in my feed from my algorithms [I belong to a lot of ACON boards] and one can see the taunting and put downs continuing even as they complain about their adult child who is gone. Why would they come back? There's endless videos on YouTube where taunting is repeated. Some give cold hard statements like "Move On!" and "I don't care anymore". I saw where a very angry parent quoted a verse from Proverbs 30:17

As thus

"Proverbs 30:17 NIV The eye that mocks a father,

that scorns an aged mother,

will be pecked out by the ravens of the valley,

will be eaten by the vultures."

Is that going to bring their adult child back as they imagine themselves being pecked by ravens? Many of us felt hen pecked to death as we walked out the door. 

Lise is right to point out that too many put forth the front they were exceptional parents and focusing on shaming their children. How is that supposed to work? She's right that is ineffective for reconciliation. Most of the adult children have already had guilt haunt them for decades. Nothing was ever enough to these parents. One couldn't make a move without criticism, invalidation or being told they were wrong. People get tired. 

She is also fair in pointing out that some do have children leave who are not narcissists and who desired to have real relationships. I concede those situations exist too, sometimes a child will have a personality disorder or will have addiction problems. 

Lise points out how "no contact" has become very common. What's happening? More on that later.

Sadly many of the estranged parents just want to fight back, get revenge and trash their own children.

"When I look at Peep's blog post on this, and the responses of parents going through this, it becomes obvious that it's not going to get better by parents retaliatating against their child (because it is a generational shift after all) and going "no contact" themselves with their children, or indulging in all of tit-for-tat I'm seeing, is copying what these adult children are doing. It would be hypocritical, right?"

It is a mess isn't it? She sums this up well, where is the retaliation going to go but round and round?

"Who wants children if they are just going to divorce you, right? And who wants parents if they invalidate, don't listen, are so far from understanding a child's personality, thoughts, experiences, feelings and childhood and adult needs, that parents are treating children like their workers who they can fire at any time? What child would want a life like that, right?"

This statement stood out to me, maybe there's a reason Gen Z and millennials don't want kids, even beyond the economic factors. If their parents were regretful, hated it, and family life was an exercise in misery why replicate it? I was too infertile and sick to have children but there was that backdrop of me remembering how much my parents hated dealing with their own children. It was obvious my parents did not like me. Love seems very short in supply now. As I have written on this blog for years, children are seen as trophies, status symbols and objects. When the trophies don't perform and don't bring status, they are treated like crap. Yes, they are treated like workers that can be fired at any time. One thing many ACONs write about is how they felt like interlopers in their own house, their parents stared them down even as they ate a bologna sandwich like they took that food out of their mouths. If there is no feeling like being part of a family in early years, what's going to keep an adult child sticking around? You were resented, you were not wanted, once adulthood rolls around you can then walk away!

There's a reason the younger generations are walking away. One of my prevailing theories for why no contact has increased, is there is no understanding or connection about the changed economic fate of younger generations. This is the first generation in history where they had no investment [in most cases] in the betterment of their children.

Our prospects sunk like rocks, and we were judged by parents who had no empathy or understanding. Get called a loser long enough, is that a relationship you want to stay in? I suffer now, being in a boomer dominant town, where people live lives I could never dream of, and there's a lot of accompanying judgment there. There's exceptions to this of course but I feel like the little match girl around these rich people and as they walk by me, there's these type of attitudes: "Why are you so unhappy? Why can't you do these things? You are so negative!" I feel pressure to keep a mask on, it's hard. Somewhere along the line, many people stopped being able to walk in other people's shoes, conceiving of what their lives were really like. What use is a family where Mother bought two homes, wintered in Florida, shopped her way through life and you can't even pay the light bill? In the case of Gen Z and millennials, you live with a huge cadre of roommates into an advanced age, and you can't even afford your own place. Lack of money means you never get to grow up. You never become an equal. You are considered a failure. 

 I saw one outraged Gen Z dealing with economic issues lamenting they were stuck in arrested development and forever adolescence and this is true! There's a point where poverty makes one unable to reach normal adult milestones. Now you have millions of people who have been blocked from normal adult milestones, this is a recipe for social disaster on multiple levels. You think the young are happy now, as they see the bottom kicked out? I know of young people with nice normal loving parents, who are living in RV campers ashamed to go home, because they "failed", now imagine if you have a cold parent who blames you! 

This has formed incredible disrespect from the older generation [boomers usually though there are some well off older Gen X who succeeded in tech and healthcare] who look down at their failed "forever adolescent" adult children who could not attain home ownership, careers or even having families. This can happen between a Gen X poorer 60 year old still scrapping by in apartments and an established "pillar of society" 80 year old. I've lamented enough on here over how the expectations were so high and I did not enough money to live properly or even get my needs met and I live better than many younger people in my own apartment.

The unequal standing takes a toll.  The poorer children, know by a certain age things aren't going to get better.  Poor and underemployed at 40 is different than at 25 and the millennials entered their 40s long ago. They picture themselves homeless in a ditch, or are living in a storage shelter already or a rental room and then they look at "Mom" in her large home, money for new clothes, meals out, a level of dignity they will never have. Add to this "Mom" is respected, they are not and "Mom" blames them for their poverty.  Why wouldn't a person walk in that case? The economic devastation between generations is a giant cause of the fact of so many having gone no contact. The prodigal son, or daughter really has no home anymore. No one understands or admits your reality. 

And here's one thing I've noticed, older generations are very focused on success. After all they were indoctrinated into the American dream, and now the young realize that's over and there's no one to validate or even understand their experiences. National media isn't going to do it. The old perverts who are in charge aren't. Everything's been monetized so even finding the areas of life that used to sustain people like spirituality and more are far harder to come by. Now I don't want to do a blanket statement here, there are exceptions to this rule. I have noticed living in a very affluent boomer dominant town, that a lot of focus on life is achievement and always being "busy" and competition. I see these retired ladies, who always seem on the move. I can't fathom it. It kind of exhausts me. Status seems to be what floats the entire boat. The experience is so different between different generations, maybe that's where some of the disengagement is coming from as well.

Lise sees some of the economic disconnection too:

As far as going "no contact" over toxic family issues, it's complicated, and often "the choice of last resort". But there are reasons why Gen Z is going this way: many of them "just can't take added stress any more", at least where they are at this particular time, with many trying to find good paying jobs, some of them trying to pay off student loans with higher interest rates than their parents had to endure, trying to find adequate living quarters, trying to find a mate, trying to avoid the uptick of viruses since the pandemic hit, and all of the challenges that young adults are facing in today's world. 

Many in these younger generations have seen the bottom fall out, and were raised with false expectations. I saw a few videos on YouTube where some talked about how college was a scam and their parents lied to them about college bringing a good job, and now they had all this debt. The challenges are much higher for young people. I was poor as a young adult, but I still had a lot more fun, concerts, clubs, records, art, train trips, day trips, computer lans, movies, eating out, bookstores, than I see the young of today having. No money means no fun. Their lives are austere. They have to work a lot of hours, but there's very little of the leisure we got to enjoy in the 80s and 90s. They don't have much to look forward to. Even from my standing of having had a hard life, I feel sorry for a lot of them. I dare say there's a reason many of them have gotten fed up with their parents.

Maybe that's why 30 percent have checked out. They got tired of being put down, given false promises, those of course with abusive parents tired of the endless criticism and more. 

I like that Lise also basically states, stop the narcissistic behavior, criticism etc. With so many lacking accountability, the self-examination of their own behavior is very lacking. I examined myself as to why the relationship with my mother failed. I have comic journals from 1999-today. The one from 2002 is interesting. I wrote things like "I was a horrible daughter, I wasn't clean enough, I was autistic". I drew myself crying and mother getting mad as if I really was a burden, so I did the thing of trying to see things from her eyes. That is when I was in very conservative churches [my first one was a happy experience] and on my "forgiveness" kick. I can say with surety my mother has never examined one fault in her entire life. The narcissistic ones, think they are perfect. They will never look in a mirror and ask "What did I do wrong for this relationship to fail?" I am dealing with troubles, where I have asked myself "What is wrong", "what did I do?" I'm noticing impatience surrounding my health problems. You think people are excited to talk to someone on a machine? Some pundits may say "People are jerks" but most ACONS blamed themselves for years, trying to fix things, trying to be whoever the people around them wanted them to be and they got TIRED. At times, I had this thought, "People go no contact from sheer exhaustion". Maybe it's my chronic fatigue talking, I don't know. 

Lise then addresses the parents, and asks them questions from their side and the adult children who wish to go no contact. Check these parts out. If you are an estranged parent, go down the list and ask yourself these things. It's a very good list. 

For the rest of the blog I have two sections, one for If you want to tell your child you are enjoying life without him or her, that sends a myriad of messages you may not want to send if what you actually want is reconciliation. One of the messages that you send when you say that you are enjoying life without them is that "parent and child estrangements are acceptable, joyful and normal, and I'm enjoying the estrangement." - probably not a good idea if you want a healthy bond. 

     If life is truly better without him or her in your world, make sure you want to send this message - it will be taken as rejection by almost all children, even adult children and will cause trauma.

 There were tons of estranged parents crowing about how they didn't need their adult child, and they were going to enjoy life without them. I remember one conversation with my mother where she wrote, "I for one, though plan on having a good time!" In my case, no one cared that I left. My mother's hooverings were all about control. I got a one sentence response to my no contact letter. My leaving her, meant I would be rejected and ostracized from the rest of the family so all those relationships were wiped away but then no relationships really existed. My mother is much higher on the spectrum of Cluster B than most, but I saw that on the estranged parents board. Attitudes like "well screw them", and mocking children financially appeared on many estranged boards I saw, "I'll be on my cruise while they are waitressing". 
Some of Lise's list was interesting, some of us probably read this line and think I wish!

     For an underage child, bring them to your local hospital and tell the social workers there that you no longer want your child and that you are dropping him or her off to be parented by someone else.

  Her list is quit comprehensive, this one is a good one. Sadly the arrogance drips off all these estranged parent pages. Many consider themselves superior to their adult children.

Some seem to desire revenge on their kids or for life to dish out some revenge/negative karma to them. Here was one disturbing meme. Not all ACONS will go on to have children. 

* Don't "toot your own horn" or act arrogant if you want reconciliation. Arrogance is also a narcissistic trait and what it shows is "I am right and you are wrong, and as long as I think I'm the best parent in the world, nothing will change between us. It's all your fault and it's your burden to make up with me." - it doesn't work. 

Lise is right about this item on the list. 

Some are so invested in being "right", they don't even care about what it may cost them. Here's a meme I saw seeing some of these Estranged parent groups:

If he's gone, don't you think you were a bit overly strict? The mind boggles. Where's the love if you can't even apologize?

One can remember this video from the movie Matilda. This sums up Estranged parents with NPD attitudes in a nutshell....

Newsflash: ADULTS don't want to hear that crap from anyone. And this is said to people in their 20s-70s! Sometimes I think for some people there is no passage of time or change. They still see their adult child as the frightened cowering 10-year-old, they can boss around and say that to. 

Lisa talks about criticism, and the contests for love and approval. Check her list out on the link she lists all these things and asks estranged parents, are you doing these things? She also gives details about what not to do, to avoid looking and sounding narcissistic, like not gaslighting your kids, calling them names, doing smear campaigns to others and treating them with contempt. She brings up perspecticide where the adult child's true feelings and more are ignored. 

It's interesting to me, that she also points out to the estranged parents, "you are not their boss and they are not your workers". I've discussed this before, but domination instead of cooperation really took over in the American culture, this is one reason families are breaking up. Parents have the trophies for status, they expect obedience and ignore the fact they gave birth to actual human beings who may have their own desires, thoughts, wants and needs. They become adults who may follow their own independent path. How many young people can say home is a safe place to land anymore or a place of solace, communication, understanding and love?

 The word ungrateful is abused too and she mentions that and how that word is used to abuse adult children. I read these words over and over, "We did everything we could for you, and here you are coming back for more!" Trust me ACONS know they are resented and seen as BURDENS. My mother said that one to me all the time. Once I got it in response to "Why didn't you help me with my medical problems as a minor?" but then they usually will just rewrite history and gaslight if you win that argument. 

She mentions empathy and boundaries and more and goes into more reasons why estrangement happens from lifestyle differences, politics, moving and being long distance to helping adult children understand the traits of narcissism. Check this article out, it's a good one!

She also wrote this article too, that ties into this one about INVALIDATION and how it is used:

Perspecticide and Being Invalidated Often Feels Unsafe and Even Downright Dangerous On the Receiving End. Comes With a Discussion on Narcissism.

I've written about Invalidation too and how harmful it is. Lise goes into details about how it is done, the effects of PTSD and the thoughts and struggles the "invalidated" often scapegoated child/adult child goes through.

And that's one main theme I saw on all these Estranged Parent boards, outside of the few innocent ones with drug addicted or troubled adult children, the majority seemed to hold no interest in actually listening to their children or accepting their views or their reality. It was one theme that occurred over and over again. 

One very scary estranged mother who will remain unnamed did a video on social media I ran across today where she basically said, "I don't have to explain myself to you [meaning her estranged children or child]. "We don't have to entertain your judgments." "We don't have to include you in areas of our lives that have nothing to do with you!" 

There's invalidation on display right there. I can see why the someone went no contact! That's all about control, she doesn't want to know her children or for them to know her. That was true of my own mother. I wasn't even allowed to take an interest in her and have her communicate her memories, thoughts, emotions or opinions [beyond housework] so that door was shut long before I went no contact. This lady probably stayed a stranger to her children as well. More on that later, but vulnerability is gone in American society, people are shutting the door, it is hard to get close to anyone now. Here I can ask too, "What use is a parent or a family if you don't really know them?"

There is a lot of counter-protests too, that show up on the Estranged parent boards. Some mods ban the ACONs that come in and disagree. I liked this one statement, "Imagine what it takes for a child to cut off a parent knowing they'd also be excommunicated from their extended family." Yep! I faced that years ago when I went no contact.  I do want to tell ACONS read Lise's articles but be careful if you do see estranged parents boards and websites especially on social media. Some of the articles, memes and more are very abusive, cruel and with a nasty tone. They can be triggering!

You must remember there is backlash happening, and as we know for the narcissistic ones, real change, and reconciliation isn't happening. It's getting a bit hot out there. The estranged parents do have sold out professionals on their side, some of the professionals joined with their "cause" are estranged parents themselves. 

One thing I have noticed is they predict doom for all their no contact children. The taint of desired revenge fills the room. Some may say "Well Peep your life has gone bad since you went no contact, you're poor, you're having bad health issues!": but I am still alive! That's all I have to say "I am still alive" and I believe I wouldn't be if I had not gone no contact some years ago. I have had some successful moments [not money making stuff] but gained some notice as an artist and had some happiness I probably otherwise would never have seen. I was not destroyed or owned. Life is very hard, but it would be harder dealing with their BS. 

The bible does say this, 

Matthew 24:12

“And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”

This is happening now IMO. Now you may not share my religious beliefs, but I suppose this is what explains all of this mess to me.

Even a secular person could say of these parents "Where is the love?" 

 I saw this estranged parent article this week. My words in red

"ESTRANGEMENT FROM THE DATA

Here’s the less-talked-about side: what actually happens to the adult children who go full no-contact (especially when the original “abuse” was low-to-moderate or nonexistent). These are the patterns that show up again and again in research, reconciliation stories, and the private DMs of every estranged-parent group.

 1 Regret hits like a freight train (usually 5-15 years later)

I wouldn't call it regret, I call it facing what should have been and as you unpeel the layers, even the last layers, you realize the depth of what had been done. 

 ◦ Cornell Reconciliation Project (Pillemer, 2021): 61 % of adult children who initiated estrangement eventually want contact again. Only 19 % of parents do.

I don't believe this stat. I do think there are instances among many average people, no ACONS or NPDs, where there may be a dispute or occasional fight or disagreement to be worked through but that stat of only 19% of parents wanting to reconcile speaks for itself. 

 ◦ The most common triggers: having their own kids, death/illness of the cut-off parent, or simply waking up one day and realizing the therapist who collected $150/hr isn’t coming to their kid’s graduation.

Blaming the therapists is big on these boards. Maybe because the therapists tell them what they don't want to hear or the therapist helped give their child strength to stand against the abuse.

 2 Their own kids often repeat the pattern

 ◦ Anecdotal but everywhere: the adult child who cut off Mom at 28 gets cut off by their own 25-year-old ten years later. Karma? Maybe. Learned behavior? Definitely.

Some break the pattern, they are loving to their children and go on to have good relationships with the adults. 

 3 Chronic guilt and shame that therapy can’t fix

 ◦ They were told “you’ll feel free.” Instead they feel haunted. Holidays, Mother’s Day, random Tuesdays—something always stings. Many end up in therapy again… for the estrangement they created.

Its like they want their kids to suffer? It's kind of creepy. And here you see whoever wrote this blaming the adult child. Guilt can happen in the early years but that ebbs away as the picture comes into focus. 

 4 Loss of free safety net

 ◦ No more emergency babysitting, no interest-free loans, no one to call when the car dies at 2 a.m. They discover “chosen family” is great until someone actually needs real help.

It never was dependable in the first place and there was a pound of flesh and soul extracted for every dollar. Here too none of them ask, why are adult children so economically desperate and always in need? It just doesn't occur to them. If your family resents you, every time you need help and sabotages and sets you up for failure, who is going to want help anymore? Many leave knowing one day it could even mean homelessness to them. Life can be scarier if you have no one to turn to, but then many cannot live a healthy life, having people in your life who resent and hate you and consider you a burden. One recent layer for me, well really last year was facing the facts, I am a severely disabled woman, and there was absolutely no mercy for that fact. 

 5 Identity whiplash

 ◦ They spent years building an identity as “the survivor who escaped the toxic family.” When life gets hard and they realize Mom wasn’t actually a monster, the entire narrative collapses. That’s an existential crisis money can’t buy.

If Mom treats them like this or whoever wrote this, how are they going to figure out that Mom is not a monster. Here you see the arrogance at it's height. Life is hard but it was harder with you. 

 6 Higher rates of anxiety and depression long-term

 ◦ A 2023 Belgian study (still the only longitudinal one) found that adult children who maintained no-contact for >5 years had worse mental-health outcomes than those who moved to low-contact or reconciled. The “peace” was temporary; the grief was permanent.

The grief was there far before we left. The grief was there realizing we got someone incapable of love. We can't replace the families we never had. There were always be grief over that.  Here they try to twist the pain of an ACON/ex-scapegoat against them. If someone has to orphan themselves from their entire family there's a reason, why. No one wakes up and thinks of an innocent family, "Oh they suck, let's leave", this is after years of abuse. 

 7 Grandchildren grow up and ask questions

 ◦ “Why don’t I have a grandma like my friends?” is a question no amount of “your mom was toxic” prepares you for when it comes from an eight-year-old.

Tell the kid the truth, along age appropriate lines, grandma may show up, hand out the money and try to ruin their life or make them become LIKE her. 

 8 They become the very thing they accused you of

 ◦ Rigid, unforgiving, quick to cancel people who disappoint them. The irony is thick.

if true who'd they learn it from then?

 9 Reconnection attempts are often humiliating

 ◦ Many crawl back with a half-assed “I’ve been doing my own healing” text after a decade of silence. Parents who spent years in agony are now the ones with the power to say “no thanks.”

This one is priceless because it shows whoever wrote this, has no interest in reconciliation. They mock even an adult child who may go back. Most ACONS have warned that the punishment and torture is waiting for anyone who dares to ends their no contact. Let this one serve as a warning out there. Mine doesn't miss me but I often have had thoughts like, "I did us both a favor, we could not stand each other." I wanted love to a certain point but realized that would be impossible. In my case too as I have talked about there really was no relationship. 

One-liners from adult children who came back (real quotes, anonymized):

 • “I traded my mother for internet validation and a $180 therapy co-pay.”

 • “I cut her off to protect my mental health. Ten years later the only thing wrong with my mental health is what I did to her.”

 • “I told everyone she was abusive. Then I found her old journals and realized I was just an ungrateful asshole.”

Here I am just rolling my eyes. Would an NPD journal? The few innocent parents might?

The punchline no one says out loud: the adult children who do this over politics, minor disagreements, or “she makes me feel guilty” almost always end up paying the higher price. Parents lose the present. Kids lose the future.

and grandchildren will have no experience with aging or how their family ages !

Yes all this is pretty sad. There is a meanness and coldness out there now. I know now in this backlash, the adult children who have left are blamed as the instigators, but for the majority they left for a reason, and those reasons, well you are seeing a group of people who aren't interested in change. 

We are in a very cold society now. Spiritually, this is one of lowest ebbs ever. I am going to post about Epstein and a few other issues. The family is breaking up. The families have waxed cold. For many ACONS, no contact was to save their lives and their minds. Do some innocents get caught up, with troubled children who are drug addicts or with personality disorders themselves or other NPDs turning them against an innocent parent? Sure. But for the majority, the attitudes speak for themselves.  You can see why their adult children left!