Saturday, June 27, 2020

.....But I love My Abusers! Anna V of Narcissists Suck Blog Disappoints




“He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.” "1984"--George Orwell.


 The other day, I went back to an old blog, I used to read all the time named Narcissists Suck. This blog with it's author, Anna V was very helpful to me once upon a time. Her blog was one that helped to open my eyes about narcissists and no contact. My gratitude for Anna V was always there as she was someone who lit a match for a light for me to find my way out of the ACON thicket. They always say be careful of elevating your heroes too high because sometimes you find out they have feet of clay or maybe you outgrow them?

 Anyhow I saw this post on the Narcissists Suck blog:

 Book Recommendation

Anna V recommended the book, "If You Tell" by Gregg Olsen. This book and what she had to say about it disturbed me. I did leave her a comment, but for some reason, the title of the book had not clicked when I wrote my comment. I had seen a TV show about the Knotek case too, and got confused. When I went to go read reviews, I realized I had read the book from the library some months ago. I also had seen a TV show too about the case.

Anna V's reaction to this book horrified me. She wrote:

"Like the Knotek sisters, I hate my mother, yet she was my mother and part of me loves her. It is a hard dichotomy to explain, but those of us with these kind of mothers understand perfectly."
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I responded back a couple weeks ago....[as of 6/27/20 my comment has NOT been posted on her blog]

If those Knotek sisters still love their mother, something is wrong with them, but then they should have maybe seen a prison cell too. I don't think they deserved full sentences as sociopaths put undue influence on teen children, but these girls went to school while their mother starved and beat disabled people and DID NOTHING. I wrote a controversial post on my blog some time ago where I was offended at those who preached love and forgiveness for the most sociopathic including the BK Killer.

http://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2019/02/why-did-she-apologize-to-her-serial.html?showComment=1553283138179#c8525994975477158778

http://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2019/03/forgive-and-forget-enables-them.html

I have to admit your post disturbed me, where you mentioned a GC supposedly narcissistic sister changing. Most will not have their GC [if truly with NPD] change.

When I was a fundamentalist Christian, I deconverted and have since left Christianity, I remember the talk about "God changing people" and "testimonies" which actually helped to enable abusive people to continue harming others.

Maybe your sister never was truly NPD, I don't know.....but those false religious promises can set people up to be re-offended against. A person who isn't NPD, may be able to change, and introspection will come, but those who are malignant and with it, that is never going to happen. I also get worried when people wax on about "love" for abusers.

Please be mindful of the ACONS who do not love their abusers, and who have been shamed for not producing emotions of fondness for those who tried to destroy them. Sadly in our authoritarian and toxic religious society, even if a parent, beats and starves you, one is told they "must love them".

Even the horribly abused Turpin children showed the same messages to "love and forgive" sociopathic parents. With the Turpin children, I wrote:

https://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-turpin-parents-sentenced-to-25.html

"The evil are empowered on multiple levels in this society. Those who enact the worse crimes who don't have a sorry bone in their bodies, are excused and empowered while their victims or families of their victims are told to "forgive". I understand moving forward from abusers, but why are are their victims told over and over to suppress all emotions, to "forgive" and to give them place after place? This is especially strong in some religious circles."

I loved your blog for years, in fact finding your blog years ago, helped me so much. This post worries me though. Please be careful of telling people that God will change their abusers or flying monkeys or GC's in a family.

Today I see conservative Christianity as teaching many false and harmful things when it comes to abuse and "forgiveness". Evil is enabled in many of these circles.

I think there is something insidious about love for sociopaths being pushed in these notorious cases. I hope you can take the time to understand what I am warning of here.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I would like to read it but I can tell some of those messages are probably in this book too.

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I did read the book from the library. It was terrible. The psychopathic mother in the book is extreme. She basically is a serial killer who went after disabled and down and out people, moved them in and then tortured, starved, beat, imprisoned and killed them. Kathy Loreno and Ronald Woodworth were two boarders that lived with the Knotek family, where Michelle Knotek destroyed them over a series of months. Shane Watson was a nephew too, that lived with the Knotek family who was murdered at the behest of Michelle Knotek, by her husband David Knotek. In the book, Shane had taken pictures of the abuses done against Kathy and was going to expose Michelle and was shot by David. James McClintock was a later possible murder victim as well.

This book was a disgusting how-to manual on the ways humans scrape and bow and in cowardice do the bidding of manipulative sociopaths and psychopaths. Michelle Knotek played everyone for a fool around her and they all shuddered in fear before her. I don't have this book now to quote from it but the two oldest daughters while they were abused themselves, did witness the abuse, starvation, and killing of Kathy and Ronald. As I read this book, I was driven to tears and angry, but some of my anger was towards them, they would go to school and say nothing, they wouldn't even bring a slice of bread to Kathy or Ronald or call for any help, thus the title "If You Tell..." As the book proceeded, I was horrified.

They both, Nikki, and Sami [the youngest daughter--Tori- I don't hold as responsible] should have seen some charges for their inaction. This book angered me so much reading it, that while I understood psychopaths manipulate and teenagers will be afraid, I do hold the daughters at a level of culpability in refusing to do anything for the people they watched be killed. Where was their empathy? My level of disgust for them was pretty high. They even left their youngest sister in the pit for years, after they left home knowing their mother was a murderer. They were all complicit. The monster sadist mother was allowed to hurt and kill people with no one standing up to the extremes of brutality and the silent people around her helped make it happen.

The excuse making in the book for the weak most likely Dark Triad husband, and the daughters made no sense to me. As I have written on this blog many times, enablers, betraying bystanders and more hold responsibility too. Every ACON has had their moments of weakness and cowardice in the face of sociopaths and malignant narcissists. I regret some of my own though in my case, I did attempt rescue of other scapegoats from abuse and to ally with them. But would a person of any conscience sit and watch someone be killed and then do nothing? Could you or I watch someone be tortured and do nothing watching these horrors for months? Cowardice is something abusers use to do their evil and they get away with it.

I saw this man on the show Evil Lives Here, who did express remorse and disgust at his own cowardice in refusing to help save two sisters from his own psychopathic mother Teresa Knorr, he went to school too, as one was chained to a table and killed, and the other locked in a closet and starved to death. William and Robert did face charges in this case. Teresa Knorr led them to have active participation, but what can say about the two daughters in this case? This blog post angered me and later made me want to throw up.

Anna V admits Knotek is evil, but then gives us the "love sociopaths/malignant narcissists/psychopath" message. She starts writing about how her supposed NPD sister "changing" and talks about "loving her mother" even while admitting some hate. The book, "If You Tell" was a very hard book to read but one running theme in the book is basically a murdering sociopath achieving malicious victory over others via manipulation and cowardice. David Knotek most likely is on the malignant narcissist/sociopath spectrum too, as he callously murdered his wife's nephew---the girls were lied to and told he had left. The nephew was going to run away but the mother wanted him dead because she was afraid of being exposed.

The disabled people who got starved and beaten in front of the teenage girls and one younger sister watched the mother do all these horrible things, they even have descriptions in the book of walking past the boarders as they were locked in small cages out in the barn and bleach being poured over Ronald's injuries. The suffering they went through was extreme. The two daughters were going to school and seeing neighbors, and were not locked up themselves. One even escaped and never told anyone what happened at home after she was safe. There were descriptions of both murder victims begging for food and being ignored. I almost did not finish this book, I was so upset.

I don't mind someone recommending books on true crimes, these things need talked about to be stopped but the "love" talk nauseates me. The two oldest daughters remain in contact with their father who shot their cousin and murdered him as a teen, that is a problem. The daughters yes were abused, the mother had them run around naked, she beat them, and had them wallow in mud, denied them hygiene, food and clothing. I think they should have faced some charges for their inaction but their abuse histories definitely should have been taken into account if there had been any court actions.

One thing that is scary here, is Michelle Knotek may get out soon. A masterful sociopath managed to manipulate the court system. The daughters warn she is still a danger. Wikipedia claims they are no contact with the mother and that Nikki the youngest is the only daughter who is no contact with the father.

Back to Anna V, the comments about the daughters still loving this mother disturbed me. So Anna V's take on this house of sociopathic horrors book, was I love Mommy too!? and My narcissist sister has really changed!?. This book was like a primer of most people kissing sociopathic butt, and how much of cowards they can be. Just look at Trump, the destruction of America and all the cowards and sycophants around him.Where's her sense of outrage? We definitely viewed this book very different.

This is one dark human trait, where the worse get the most accolades and dare I even say demands for love! Where's the love for the victims here? In our society, evil is enabled at multiple layers. The message is go submit. While some scapegoats stand up against evil and walk on, counting our losses, some remain as identifiers with abusers.

With Anna V who in the past seemed so strong and resolute, my disappointment is great. Perhaps some start off strong and then break later. The pressures can be unrelenting even for someone long into no contact to go rejoin the Borg and assimilate with gooey-eyed dreams of "forgiveness" and "changed hearts". Conservative Christianity sure shoves that stuff down people's throats. Those are some circles that really demand acquiescence to the powerful.After all if you are to bow before an all powerful capricious God that sends most humans to hell, maybe this translates to what type of humans you put before others.

Maybe some obtain higher status, that changes their role in the family via career and return. One thing I have noticed about Anna V and yes I only have so much information available to me via her blog, is she seems to have escaped the poverty, family and job problems that come for many life long scapegoats. I have to admit when a self-admitted scapegoat has life go swimmingly well free of autoimmune disease, disabilities, career problems, money problems, it makes me wonder how severe the abuse really was? Many scapegoats can find success and financial security don't get me wrong, but one thing I note in our status oriented society, is most scapegoats who are severely abused end up with a stacked deck.

I tend to distrust self-avowed scapegoats who formerly went full no contact, and then suddenly end up with full inheritances, status and respect within their families. How does this happen? Can someone fill me in on this? Yes some with marriage, luck, work that pays off and careers that work out, can do well, and maybe with this higher status in their abusive family, they go and rejoin heads full of cotton candy and family mythos, saying "I love my family, my golden child formerly narcissistic sibling has changed!" Add in flowing liters of Jesus Juice and some commit newly to the family dream, their earlier "negative" musings set aside.

Some former scapegoats do choose the system. Like Uncle Ruckus who hates being black on the Boondocks and helps out the racists, many scapegoats choose the side of the powerful and then teach us we must love and forgive abusers. They tell us the people who hold the power, are owed most of our love and obedience. We live in a sick society, where power and status denote everything and the "dominator" culture teaches people to bow before those who have oppressed them. "Internalized oppression" is a concept that one can consider here. The messages are: Submit to the family. Submit to the people in charge. Submit to mother, father, boss, the people with money, the people who are "not weak". The "family" in our culture is often a tool of oppression, never question the "cult leader", and the myths there can oppress us, such as the one, "you must always love your mother" even if she is a murdering psychopath.

Us supposedly unloving ACONs who no longer love our abusers, nor smile up at the Big Brother's or Big Mamas who sought to literally destroy us, physically and otherwise, are deemed as the "radicals" who must be silenced or ostracized. I notice some of the most popular and well read blogs--even ones on a 10 year long hiatus, preaching the societally mandated messages of "love your abusers", definitely move up the ranks. I do not think this is by accident.

One reason I am no longer a Christian, is the oppressive nature of the conservative Christian world. I do see the conservative Christian world as allied with evil. This shows on multiple layers. I can be allies with liberal Christians even as one who no longer believes in the religion who see a loving Jesus of freedom--a radical Christ who was seen against the system, but lets be frank modern conservative Christians belong to a religion that is power focused. Pay attention to WHO they tell you to love. It's not the down and out or weak. It's not the disabled people chained up in a cage. This is a religion that pushes full ableism. They want you to love your abuser. They want you to love the mother who abused you. They are happy when people are obedient and LOVE their murdering sociopaths or in the case of the Turpins someone who chained you to a bed and left you mal-nutritioned for years.

Conservative and evangelical Christianity kills empathy and these conservative Christians only value families and "breeders" so single people who are disabled are deemed worthless and disposable, with the emphasis that love should be given to murdering psychopaths and narcissists. I know questioning these societal edicts by the way, is really sticking my head out. These are some of the most controversial articles that earn me the most ire. How dare you? I know with this one it may bring negative responses. That's fine with me. If more people spoke out, maybe we'd get somewhere instead of being told to coddle and enable abusers.

Anna V was one of the most well-liked ACON bloggers out there. With Anna, since she was someone who lit up my path out, I hope she understands and reads this not seeing condemnation but being brought to a place of self-examination to ask herself what are you allied with? Why do you preach love for the worse? Do you really love your abusers, or do you assent because you are told you MUST? Why didn't you question the message of this book like I did?

No one loved the disabled and poor in this book. They were seen as "throw-aways" desperate for a home. I write this article to defend them and others like them, who have the world busy loving the sociopaths. Kathy and Ronald deserved a lot better. Maybe the daughters instead of going on about loving their mother and making excuses for their cowardice should have confronted their lack of love for them. I cried reading about how Kathy and one daughter were even close and Kathy showed her love and was betrayed even after all that.

By the way, being disabled myself, I know people who have been desperate and very abused invited into homes. One of my closest friends who I talked to on the phone everyday for 17 years, was locked up and chained to a bed, to have a Social Security check stolen before I knew her. The vulnerable of this society became far more so as the evil are enabled, and given far higher places. That horrible deliverance minister invited people in, to live with her. She preyed on the disabled too to play her head games and from what I could tell many of her clients that did go live there, were homeless and poor and disabled. To be disabled in American society means you are very vulnerable and forced to be dependent on the help of others. Disability checks especially SSI are well below survival levels. Many predators take advantage of that.

Those who wax on about love for their abusers, have rejoined the system and promote it.

Anna V is friends with Sister Renee. I was on her boards when I was still a Christian. One scary thing about Sister Renee, she wrote an "OK BOOMER" flavored book about "mooches", aka poor people in her family. That probably tells you everything you need to know. Younger people [Gen X on down] have been horribly abused by religious boomers who refuse to acknowledge how the economic world has changed for them. I was going to order her books but after I saw that decided not to. I knew someone who had such a horrible attitude towards poor people was not someone who was going to relate to my situation.

Obviously Sister Renee is not someone who is on the economically disenfranchised side, as her anger is for the relatives who borrowed money from her. I would see her outraged posts about those in need on her Facebook pages too and it turned me off. The existence of this book angered me years ago, because many scapegoats end up poor and out of money....so she writes this well-off woman book complaining about poorer family members?

Let's just say the conservative Christian track record with the poor, isn't a good one. This is another place where I wonder about the higher status and money influencing ACON writings. I used to love Anna V's blog, but now that's no longer true.

Maybe I changed, it may not be all her, but to see so many backtrack on formerly strong stances can be rough. There's not many ACON blogs out there. Having one of the most well-known ACON blogs backtrack on the strong positions of ten years ago is not easy. I worry about other ACONS who may have even gone no contact years ago, finding her blog, and feeling uneasy. The illusion of "changed" narcissists is a scary and dangerous one too, as many ACONs feel the pressure to "forgive" their families and I have heard of people even going back into the fray 10 years later only to be reburned and abused.

She is promoting a false dream there to many. My sister is never going to suddenly see and validate me. That's a fool's notion. God never changed my narcissists or made what happened to me right or brought me any justice. Everyone loved and chose my mother. What does love mean, when all the love is meant for the most cruel? Nothing. She wrote about her family's abuse, and cruelties for years and suddenly now they are alright? Contact is just fine after she preached no contact? How many of us ACONs were shamed for not loving our abusers?

Notice the message here, even the Knotek sisters LOVE their monster mother, and the message is "so should you". Be wary of pro-establishment ACON blogs, message boards, support groups etc. I had one blogger years ago, do the "you are so unforgiving" line with me years ago. They know what they are doing preaching these messages. There's a lot of forces in society that do not want people questioning power structures of family, politicians, and monied circles. Dealing with narcissism and how evil works is getting right to the heart of it all.

It does not escape my attention that books like this one, or that Educated book, I wrote on all have the message, "Love your abusers, Love Big Brother/Mama/Father". The memoirs that get all the attention are the ones where the victims "forgive" and still love the abusers. People are lied to and told if they are forgiving and nice, they will go on to have great lives. What a con that is! It goes along with the inspiration porn used against the disabled and the poverty porn meritocracy lies! The abusers show absolutely no love, but the abused are to submit and love even to monster psychopaths and murderers. No one ever asks why everyone is being told to love the people who are life-long incapable of it, and have proven themselves to dangerous to the rest of us. These authors play a game that they have 'transcended" evil by loving the evil and it is a lie. They have abandoned and betrayed the victims of the evil over and over.

They all push this disgusting forgiveness agenda that enables evil. Here it is even promoted for a disgusting woman that makes Ted Bundy look benign because he at least killed his victims quickly while this one drew out the torture and pain over a series of months. The daughters in this book were accomplices to evil. Their love for their mother does not impress me, it sickens me.

{Update on this, I still follow teachings of Jesus Christ, but conservative Christianity is following a scary path in this world}

51 comments:

  1. Interesting article. I haven’t read the book but I will take your word for it on the content. If the underlying message is the “unbreakable bond of sisterhood” then that is quite disturbing. I understand Stockholm syndrome and all that but why isn’t the message that these sisters enabled their serial killer mother’s crimes and if they had done something they could have saved lives? It should have been a story of bravery and heroism triumphing over the power and control an evil mother had over her children. The author, and society for that matter, should pay attention to the fact that Michelle Knotek and her ilk would have no power if they were not enabled by loyal accomplices. I’m surprised Anna V took the position that she did on the subject matter. The home page of her blog used to have the quote about how evil thrives when good men do nothing. Seems like she may have gone through an ACON deconversion. The old Anna that I admired had an unapologetic anger towards abusers and would have railed on the sisters for being such cowards. Now it appears she identifies with their cowardice and love for their mommy. I believe the abusers and those lucky enough not to be horribly victimized are the ones who set the forgiveness trap so they can feel less uncomfortable. I’m not sure what happened to the ACON community but it’s like a fireball hit it and burned it to the ground with only a few blogs surviving. Keep up the good work Peep! Glad to see you’re still standing.

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    1. Thanks anon. I found the "unbreakable bond of sisterhood" stuff to be weird too especially given that one sister was left on her own with the murderer. It is kind of odd that a psychopath mother did not triangulate the girls but maybe because the boarders served as her defacto scapegoats, maybe all three girls although she abused them too, fit some other kind of category.

      Agree with you about Stockholm Syndrome, but you are right they enabled the crimes and if they had done something, yes they could have saved lives. I wish the story had been one of bravery instead of girls making excuses for cowardice and horrifying after horrifying scenes of the dying and abused people. Go read the Amazon reviews if you get a chance from 3 stars down. Other people also wrote they thought the two oldest girls should have been charged [even with a lesser charge] for standing by silently as their mother tortured and killed these people. Some wrote the book disgusted them, one called it "a sick book about sick people, protected by more sick, irresponsible people."

      You are right with these psychopaths and narcissists, it is the enablers and loyal accomplices that give them their power. Let's not even get started too on the community that bought into Michelle Knotek's manipulations. All the weak characters around Michelle K helped in her evil acts. Even her Alford Plea which may allow her to get out soon, sounds like she is still pulling strings, how many murderers who get caught with killing 3 people are allowed to get out of jail so soon?

      I remember seeing that quote too on Anna's blog. I find myself wondering what happened. Yes did she have an ACON deconversion? She hasn't posted much in the last 10 years, just a few times. My comment may never be posted. Her blog definitely has lasting power from those old days to survive even in it's much reduced state. She seems to back in contact with her family etc etc, definitely is with the sister. In religious circles, the pressure to "forgive" is never ending, perhaps she gave in to it. Yeah I think the old Anna would have reacted to this book horrified by the inaction of the girls too. I agree with you that the abusers set the forgiveness trap so they never are held accountable. It's a perfect way to silent victims and get them maligned as "angry", "negative" and "at fault for being abused in the first place, while the psychopaths/sociopaths and malignant narcissists get off scott-free.

      I have the feeling the ACON community got fire-bombed because we live in a society where standing up to abusers and refusing to play the "enable evil" games and submit, earns some major ire in this world. I saw some other ACON blogs, one had a strange name Upsi? Something like that where many returned to their abusers and lessened the original messages. I get the feeling the "forgiveness" clan shut down ACON blogs and managed to label any ex-scapegoats as "angry" and "evil people" that should be ostracized. That's pressure that a lot of people can't take. I even wonder if this is why people in the news, TV-shows etc etc, are all ready to cry tears of forgiveness and speak words of love for the most murderous abusers. They are scared of this backlash.

      These dynamics explain why sociopaths and other malignants gain so much power in this world.

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  2. Hi Peep,
    I haven't read the book, but I think I know the kind of genre you are talking about. There seem to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of books and movies about sociopaths and psychopaths, and maybe a couple of hundred on ACONs or victims of abuse (cult victims included). It is sad and because psychopath thrillers are such available fare, I hear comments in leisurely conversations like "Yea, he's a sociopath, but you have to admire the way he ---".
    Admire?
    "I tend to distrust self-avowed scapegoats who formerly went full no contact, and then suddenly end up with full inheritances, status and respect within their families. How does this happen? Can someone fill me in on this?" - some thoughts here ... The scapegoat may have blown the whistle and exposed it all for all the family to see and inspect, and the narcissist back-tracked to avoid humiliation and derision and gave the scapegoat an equal inheritance. Or the narc got tired of the golden child, and did it to "show him up."
    I knew an NM (not from my family) who lost a daughter to her scapegoating and put pictures everywhere of her scapegoat daughter (shrine-like). This was after about 3 years of smear campaigns (lots of lies with a little truth - and what daughter would go back with all of that happening? - she never did; been estranged since the age of 29 for more than a decade). The other daughters weren't featured on the walls at all.
    The scapegoat went on to do great things with her life, while the NM is now living in poverty, shunned, alone, and old.

    "Us supposedly unloving ACONs who no longer love our abusers, nor smile up at the Big Brother's or Big Mamas who sought to literally destroy us, physically and otherwise, are deemed as the 'radicals' who must be silenced or ostracized." - so true! And most who push for making up with abusers are abusers, or abusers' henchmen themselves (except for the "in-love-with-forgiveness-no-matter-what" cults). Every time I hear "make up with --" I know that the agenda is not the victim's healing, but to keep making abuse a normalized for the abusers! If I talk about instituting laws for survivors instead and get push-back on that too, my red flag goes up: "abuser wanting an easy pass, Lise!"

    "The illusion of 'changed' narcissists is a scary and dangerous one too, as many ACONs feel the pressure to 'forgive' their families and I have heard of people even going back into the fray 10 years later only to be reburned and abused." - yup. There is also the hoovering maneuver: "Oh, I never got to know you! You have been away so long! Please! I really want to get to know you now! I'm so sorry!" And then the scapegoat tells them who they are, and the narcissist learns the weaknesses and uses for their next abuse campaign. Talk about trauma-on-steroids for the scapegoat!

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    1. Hi Lise, yes there tons of books on sociopaths and psychopaths. I was disappointed this one did not go deeper into sociopathy but some out there do.
      We get a lot of true crime books, but very few as you point go into the dynamics of abuse and ACONs. What do we got, Let me see what I can remember, Mommie Dearest, The Glass Castle--parents are more BPD and substance abusers, Fun House--graphic novel, White Oleander--mother is sociopath who gets caught early on, A Child Called It, Joyce Carol Oates writes fiction where narcs and sociopaths show up like the book, "My Life As a Rat", there's not much. So hundreds compared to millions you got that right. We hear the dirty deeds and stories of the psychopaths and malignants in true crime books but not much from victims or all encompassing books that get deep.
      Yeah psychopath thrillers sometimes seem to advance the sociopaths and psychos, after all they are the people "getting away" with things though some of them the victims do escape in the books or "fight back"

      Yeah I've heard of those who admire the sociopaths. I am told they are leaders, get stuff done, and no one screws them over. I hear the word 'strong' and then want to throw up.

      continuing...

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    2. Thanks for answering my question too Lise, yeah maybe the scapegoat blew the whistle as you say and the narc did back track to lose the battle so to speak but win the war. Some scapegoats may achieve higher status via money, jobs, career and marriage while the original narcs fall down the ladder especially as they age or are widowed, or maybe a few supporting narcissists and flying monkeys died that decreased the power of the original narc. Of course in my family the "nicer" people seem to die far younger then the malignants.

      I have heard some write on blogs, that with the scapegoat gone, sometimes that role then goes to the golden child and there is a falling out between the Ns and the N golden children.Then the N golden child goes all lovey dovey to the original scapegoat to lure them back to refill the role of family trashcan.

      Wow that's weird with the NM making little shrines to the scapegoat she scared and abused away. Yeah some scapegoats get their comeuppance. Probably won't happen in my case, mine's never gone without a dollar she's wanted. The shrines could have been "bait" too, I really really love you. In my case mine didn't even bother faking apologies, the relationship was so absolutely dead and negative.
      Thanks for agreeing with my words about those who are silenced and ostracized for not loving their abusers. I felt that pressure you know here multiple times. I lost friends [when I used to tell "closer" friends of my no contact--I keep mouth shut and past to myself now unless the friend is a fellow abuse victim, because I would not "forgive or Love" the family, used to have tons show up here, you "bitter woman", and they always pushed submission to and making up with abusers. I already had done the pat it down and forgive and try to make it okay thing for decades Yeah most who push this are abusers or I have noticed others who have given into to their abusers...my two friendships that ended from college, BOTH women came from abusive narc families, one was near my severity--her family are multimillionares and the other one was wealthy too but this was more a case of enmeshed narc. They didn't like me breaking the mold and walking, they had more money in the game of course, one got millions for her trouble and suffering.
      With Anna, the pushing of forgiveness here could be indoctrination from her conservative Christian church. In that last IFB they pushed the "forgive" no matter what thing and told people they must not cut off family-I had kept my personal history close-mouthed, but had admitted a little bit of estrangement, and even that was too much.

      The people who tell us to "make up" never ask the abusers to stop or to change-which is impossible but for us to submit and get back in line and even more importantly SHUT UP. Yes this normalizes abuse for the abusers, this is your lot in life, you deserve it, you have to "accept them the way they are" [I can't even tell you how many times I heard this one from multiple enabling family members. They were not expected to change or shape up. I was supposed to be there like a robot eating the shit sandwiches.

      Yeah I would consider it a red flag if someone gives push back for laws that protect abuse victims. I feel queasy too when I see people praising "ass whoopings" and mother's getting out the wooden spoons mocking time-outs on Facebook too.
      continuing.

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    3. Yes I was disturbed here by Anna claiming that her narc sister had changed. I don't buy the Christian teachings that God will implant new personalities in some people. Never saw it happen in the real world. Some surely left substance abuse behind, getting into the new drug of religion and things like that but never saw a malignant regrow a conscience or become an honest and truthful person. I hated seeing that on an ACON blog.

      I get the feeling with some extended no contacts say over 5-10 years, some narcs and malignants may decide to play the long game. Aka be nice for you for a time, and then stab you in the back. Yeah the "I never got to know you" game. That would be very attractive to a scapegoat too who always wanted a family that "cared" but is just more bait and lies.
      Yeah they take in information and sit lying in wait.

      You are right that more counselors and psychologists are talking about no contact and staying away from abusers, this is a good development.

      I support laws to fight narcissism and child abuse and more, we definitely need them.

      Delete
    4. Better laws are where my heart is and getting the statute of limitations lifted if you were abused as a child. Also step families have over a thousand percent more child abuse in them than biological families. One out of five children are sexually abused by their step father too. All of the statistics are scary, and if we don't do something, the nation as a whole will suffer (if it isn't already).

      Delete
    5. Keep up the good work with the laws Lise. Yeah the statute of limitations now for most makes you forced to sue by age 20. How many 20 year olds are educated about abuse and have the self reflection to go no contact and fight back. Many are still under financial dependence of the family too especially if they went to college. That crazy with the step families. The track record of the biological ones is bad enough....:( I think child abuse has affected the nation as a whole. How many reliving their trauma with Daddy Trump. I saw one of the last Trumpsters on my Facebook praising "ass whoopings". This is a old classmate/acquaintance.

      Delete
  3. cont ...
    "I have the feeling the ACON community got fire-bombed because we live in a society where standing up to abusers and refusing to play the 'enable evil' games and submit, earns some major ire in this world." - maybe, but there are now so many psychologists talking about this and actively telling people: "Most of these abusers don't change", and "the best healing is going 'no contact' because they are great saboteurs". How are the powers-that-be going to shut them up? I actually think it is getting harder for narcissists to go about in the world with their head held high, and to abuse without accountability. They have their flying monkeys who would drink the Jim Jones poisoned soft drink, certainly, but I bet their victims could break apart the narc's cult if they got together and went "at it". The thing is, most scapegoats don't go "all out" because the problem isn't "this individual narc" and "that individual narc": it is "narcissism" in general. Laws would change everything. While the new childhood sexual abuse laws are a great start, we know that other kinds of child abuse, even life threatening, happen behind closed doors every day. Laws tend to keep people from abusing power. You can't go into someone's house and steal all of their stuff. You shouldn't be able to invade your child sexually, emotionally and physically and leave him a trauma-racked wreck.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I'm sorry to hear that Anna V. changed her position and disappointed you. There are reasons for this. The original Anna probably died, her d her sister or other relatives took over her blogs. Anna probably got sent away or faced financial abuse. Or maybe Anna found she is a covert narc.

    You might want to check on the writing patterns and styles to find clues whether Anna is still writing blogs or if somebody else took over. If you see different writing styles, patterns, or word usages, y could see signs that the original author is not there.

    I plan to check on that book and let you know I think.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Interesting theory, wow never thought of that. Maybe the old narc sister took over the blog and has "flipped the script", ALL IS FORGIVEN, my "sister" is a changed person now. It is odd for someone to leave a blog up they essentially abandoned 10 years ago [maybe they did die....:/ we don't know her real name] and only post once every few years. I know some people have these busy free-wheeling lives but seems you would check in on your old blog or write on it more then that especially if it was one that had 400 plus followers just for a hello. LOL I know this theory could be wrong too. I still think of a blogger I miss very much, a friend online who had his abusers erase his blog after his death. I can see others doing different games. I think this person was married so probably less chance of abuser gaining blog access but who knows.....I don't think the writing patterns have changed but will pay attention.

      Delete
    2. Whoa! Never thought about that! If they don't know the password, how do they get in?

      Delete
    3. Person dies, and guess who has the computer and many people save their passwords on their computer or have them written down in a central location in their house or apartment. With the online friend who died, the narc definitely gained access to his blog, and just took the whole thing down, it was a lost.

      Delete
    4. Dear Peeps and Lise, i could be wrong, but i recall that Anna did pass away. Used to follow her blog, and i think she passed in 2010.
      As for conservative churches, i heard only one preacher say that we're supposed to forgive those who hurt us, but we are not commanded to trust them. We all know how the preachers roll out the account of Joseph, and his hood-rat brothers...but i don't recall anywhere, where Joseph included them into his important meetings/state functions. It's one thing to forgive and take care of people who done ya dirty, but it's way another to invite them to your next patio-party. i don't recall anywhere in the Bible concerning the later.
      As for King David, he had been invalidated as a youth; when he became king, he still was in contact with atleast one member of his family (i think Eliab's son - who was bad news). That backfired bigtime. What i didn't see in the Scriptures, is David inviting any of them to (fancy) state functions. Had to find out about King David on my own, (and still a bit peeved, because) that shoulda been preached from the pulpit. Yikes, godda do a mail-run - lunch is over.

      Delete
    5. Hi Sue,

      Wow interesting you recall her passing away. Kathy Kracjo did, you aren't confusing the two I hope. But then Kathy died around 2008. What is weird is in this post, it seems others asked what happened to Anna, and maybe had like suspicions.

      http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2019/12/conspiracy-theory-about-little-ol-me.html

      I find it extremely odd to abandon a blog so wholly and not to check messages say like once a week, especially one left open to the public instead of only shut down to private viewing. The excuses are odd, "I am so busy", like she no longer has computer access and has to cope with only dealing with her blog once every few months.

      This sentence in this post stands out for me...

      "My family of origin isn't causing any problems for me."

      So you wrote a blog of 10 years worth of problems but suddenly the FOO is all loving and kind. I never met an ACON that happened for. LOL

      Here's another weird comment:

      Anna Valerious said...

      Hey, Tylerchill. Good to see ya. Thank you for spreading the word about the blog when you've seen a need for it. Knowing you're not alone is a real gift!

      No blinky. I'm free and ransomless."

      *********************

      Maybe it is her, maybe not. I suppose some people "change" or maybe she was like this all along and we had to change to see it. It is weird others went down what she or her imposter called "conspiracy" lane.

      Delete
    6. Sue, as you know I no longer believe in the Christian concepts of forgiveness, I believe there is a core point where they enable evil as the offended against are put under more pressure to give way to evil-doers instead of evil doers themselves changing and having remorse. The bible even did not keep up with modern psychology because why aren't we warned about sociopaths and psychopaths, the words about reprobates are few and far between and there is an oddness to the bible that acts like all the people hurting others are going to double round and suddenly be nice, that's not how real life works. The Bible kind of sets up the nice and well meaning people to be ravaged by those without consciences, but if God himself is cruel enough to torture and burn his own enemies who never comply in hell, from the top down, there is an injustice and cruelty to the whole system, so why wouldn't the evil doers be given more of the power. That's one reason I left Christianity, outside of some liberal niches of Christianity where Jesus is promoted as loving--and against the system-liberation theology?, I do see it as a system of oppression and scapegoating for the most powerful. When ever I have seen evil people in my midst, the crowd never cared what happened to me or told them to make things right, all turned to me and said you must forgive.
      With Joseph and the brothers isn't there a reunion at the end where everything is supposedly hoinku-dory....

      Yes there is...
      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+50%3A15-21&version=NRSV

      This is more of that non-realism where abusers and would be murderers supposedly all become suddenly nice and kind and with no more new plots of destruction.

      This is some of the naivete about evil I often saw advanced in scripture.



      So Joseph did have them back in his life.

      How many ACONs live for that dream by the way where their abusers change [I find myself annoyed that Anna or her imposter is now advancing this, look my family CHANGED I have NO PROBLEMS WITH THEM NOW] and are disappointed for life.

      Christianity has a problem with the enabling of evil, I believe it comes from the top down. There is a message of submitting to those who have done us harm. I believe even the threats of hell, by Yawheh, teaches people to consent to harm and make way for evil doers.

      Delete
    7. Dear Peeps, now that you mention it, i do believe i had confused Kathy with Anna. Was following various narc-warning blogs around that time. As for Joseph, yes he did not only forgive and care for his brothers, but i see nothing in the Scriptures where he trusted them. Yes, he provided them food and other things, but I have yet to come across the Scripture where Joseph - or anyone else messed over by narcs - inclues them in his circle of friends. Needless to say, Joseph was in a position where he could help. All's i can figure is, when sin entered the world, our thinking became twisted - kind of like a spendthrift who keeps on buying stuff, and ignoring the steadily increasing credit-card balances. We ask ourselves, how can people be so clueless, especially well educated people? But it happens, alot.

      Delete
    8. If you know the URL of your friend’s deleted blog, then Wayback Machine/Google Cache might still have archives/snapshots, so it’s not a complete loss because of archive sites. I’m sure many abusers have been thwarted because of archivists.

      Delete
  5. Hi Peeps,
    Just sent two lenghly comments but not sure they went through because I was not captcha'd or told it would be approved.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Hello Peeps,
    I haven't read the above book, but I am familiar with the concept of keeping family secrets to cover a narcissist. My MNM had us kids sworn to secrecy on a number of things. As for Ana V's blog and stance on this, it's been a long time since I followed, but recall how committed she was to calling yhe narcissist out and shredding them where they stood with that sword of hers. Lisette was the other one, which is how I found my way here years back. Check out page 8 of Lisette's book and the comment Ana made to her likening her to ghandi for acons. Perhaps Lisette knows when she made the comment, or even whether she is still living or not.
    I am writing to you today because I am feeling very triggered. My brother died 4 1/2 years ago, 3 months after our MNM died. I'm feeling triggered because after 4 1/2 years of no contact my sister sent me an email 3 days ago. I've been in a fowl mood and out of sorts ever since. The very last contact we had was when she sent me photos of my dead brother after I specifically asked her not to. I told her I didn't want to remember him that way, that I preferred to remember him in life.
    Fortunately for me, I sensed her extreme nastiness at the time and suspected such pictures might be attached to an email she sent me. I asked my husband if he would mind opening it, he did and it was what I suspected. He said my brother was lying on the couch, his ashen dead face looking up at my sister who had him in a pose with his dead arm propped on her shoulder and she stading over him with her hand on his brow apparently comforting him. There was another one similar. He erased them and that was that as far as our contact. I never responded and was more than a little freaked out that she would screw with my mind and memories of him for eternity. Here is her email to me, grammar mistakes and all: 'It's been along time since we haven't talked I'm not sure if you knew ***** ( our brother) died. I also had cancer surgery a couple of times, but I'm recovering now. ***** (my ex boyfriend for a minute when I was thirteen) reached out to me talking about the olden days of your youth. He is in divorce now but has seven grown kids. He is very good looking guy still. *****
    (her cousin much closr to me in age and neighbor back then with ex boyfriend) came to my house and we had a long talk. He (ex boyfriend again) said he was going to Montana to you (place I escaped my MNM from with a man who came to my rescue at 14) Way back when. My phone number is *** *** **** same one. I know we left things shity but life is super short! We need to move onnnnnn."
    Continuing

    ReplyDelete
  7. Continuing
    My guarded one line reply out of curiosity was, "How do you propose that we move on? I tried that last time with each one of you, it didn't work out too well."
    Her responce, "Well I don't know families aren't perfect life is short. I know this all to well I have lost a lot of people in my life recently their lives cut short makes you think of family and how petty things that happened are as important as family is. It's your choice but I guess I'll be the one to say I'm sorry an ball is now in your court. By the way I'm an ordained minister now getting ready to perform some weddings and a Baptism soon. Going for my real estate licence." She goes on with more about connecting with her other sister, helping our niece out with what is likely donated food, her kids upcoming birthdays etc. (past triggering event) and ends with, " I don,t know what's been going on with your life but I am glad you at least replied. I hope you are okay. Happy belated birthday.
    My reply, in case she thought I thought that was an apology: "I can see you are coming from a sincere place of wanting family around you and wanting me to be included in that. But your "apology" to me, if that's what it was, leaves a lot to be desired. The things that went on and that were said and done were ugly and uncalled for and cannot be rectified with, "well I don't know families aren't perfect life is short," and "It's your choice I guess I'll be the one to say I'm sorry an ball is now in your court." That is not an apology, Google it if you like, instead of taking my "sensitive" word fot it.
    That was two days ago, haven't heard back. Not expecting to.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I posted my comments on her blog, too, even though I am unsure whether Anna would approve. Her is my statement:

    Hi Anna,

    I am an adult child of the narcissistic adopted mother, and I read several of your blogs in the past. Several of my online friends who met me at several Facebook groups told me that your blogs helped them a lot. They read your blogs alongside Kathy Kracjo's blogs that enabled them to differentiate whether they have narcissistic parents or not. They chose to join support groups before they decided that going no contact is the best way to handle their problems.

    I had to go no contact because my adopted mother abused me severely that several therapists planned to take some legal protective actions if I forgave my adopted mother and continued to contact her. The therapist also contacted authorities making sure my adopted mother no longer had access to children and vulnerable adults.

    I am disturbed when you switched your advice for ACONs to go no contact to make suggestions that we should consider forgiving our sadistic, malignant narcissistic. Forgiveness and reunification with our sadistic, malignant narcissistic are very dangerous. Even if scapegoat adult children became happily married with children, have a great job, and prosper financially, they still have to deal with smear campaigns that they could lose their job, income, reputation, or friends. I had problems with smear campaigns against me even though I live over 1,000 miles away from each other.

    Another reason to stay no contact is that sadistic, malignant narcissistic do not want to see other people be happy, successful, prosperous, and well to do. To make a story short, sadistic malignant narcs do not like seeing other people happy, close to others, and thriving. If your family appears to be supportive, they might have a milder form of narcissism or do not have severe narcissistic traits. My adopted mother was never like that, so I could not reunite with her.

    Why couldn't I just forgive and come back? Because my adopted mother is unsafe. For example, my adopted brother died in the inpatient mental hospital program because he lost his reputation that people who worked at a psychiatric hospital did not believe him. My adopted mother slandered against him to cover her buttocks.

    I plan to read the book you recommended soon, but I could not reunite with my sadistic, malignant narcissistic mother. I have to take care of myself. I hope you will respect other ACONs and my decision to go no contact. I was disappointed because your blogs helped me and many ACONs. When you changed stances and positions, it made me and some ACONs wondering we are dealing with a traitor. I would like to ask you to respect our decision to keep ourselves safe by not contacting our sadistic malignant narcissist parents and who chose not to become religious.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. HI Anon,

      I am glad you wrote Anna comments too. Hopefully she will post them. I haven't seen mine posted yet. Yes many ACONs read her board me included. In fact some of her advice was very helpful to me. The first website I found was Kathy Kracjo's. This is where I learned about NPD and what no contact was and finally finding solutions to the trap I was in and making sense of what happened to me. I am glad these websites helped you too. Therapists often told us to reconcile, or "FORGIVE" like Anna. I have written on this blog years ago, about how I forgave [during early Christian days--I am now deconverted] and got double-burned. I am glad some therapists defended you against your abusive adoptive mother.

      Thanks for telling her you were disturbed too at the switching of her advice from no contact to "forgiveness" and contact with narcissists. It definitely is a 180 degree turn. [conservative] Churches will tell ACONs they are wicked for remaining no contact, this happened in my last IFB. They literally preached from the pulpit that cutting off family members was evil no matter how much they abused you. They also gave me fantasies about people with hard hearts and narcissism suddenly having feelings and offering heartfelt apologies. I hate seeing that stuff on a classic ACON board where some ACONS may go read that trash and then be triggered, wondering why the fantasy reconcilation and forgiveness scenes did not work out in their lives, some may even go running back to abusive families, because it's better then "being alone" and the Christian ones may think "Oh I am wicked, it is God's will to go back". I have been called wicked to my face, enough times---this in days before I learned to keep my mouth shut about family history. One time I had kept my mouth shut and this lady at a Christian book club railed on about how her mother even beat her but she obeyed God and HONOR YOUR MOTHER and kept her in her life, and how evil people were who were abandoned their parents! [good thing they did not know of my history]

      continuing....

      Delete
    2. You are right that forgiveness and reunification with malignant narcs is dangerous. One thing is if someone went back, punishment and revenge will await too especially if there was any exposure.

      It is true even the scapegoats who manage happy lives, can uproot them and find those lives adversely affected by allowing dangerous narcissists in their lives to do smear campaigns, get them fired, ruin their relationships or even turn their own children against them. How does Anna guarantee her sister doesn't feed her daughter a drip drip of new poison behind the scenes. It is all absurd advice. Their formerly decent lives could be destroyed. Malignant narcs have sought to drive wedges even between married couples, playing games, sending checks, and have caused divorces too, and estranged adult children who are told lies about their scapegoated parent. Yeah Anna's advice, about her Jesus fixing people when it comes to narc's is a fool's dream.

      They do not want to see people happy, you got that right. I wrote already many narcs will play the LONG GAME kissing butts to get them in the door, and then plan your destruction. For me to break my first no contact, a little sugar was poured, "This time things will be different", they gave me smiles, and some help, it was just all a set up. Religious people often are given delusions about how the REAL WORLD WORKS. The extreme religiosity with Anna and Sister Renee applied to ME once upon a time, but at least I woke up, I never wrote for people to return to narcs though. I always wonder how these uber-Christians never see the narcissists implicit in uber-conservative/evangelical Christianity where the themes of threats via hell, punishment and compliance and dominance are paramount.
      When I read Anna's blog for years, I thought her family was malignant narcs but maybe not? So thanks for making that point too.

      Yes stay away from unsafe people. I say that to all ACONs here, don't let people with these candy land dreams lie to you about going back, and that everything will be resolved. Let your decades of abuse and experience hold sway in your mind as to how things really ARE, instead of how we would like them to BE.
      I am sorry to hear about your brother put into a psych ward, I have read of dangerous malignant parents using the psychiatry world to destroy young people with lies and smear campaigns.
      It sounds like you share my disappointment, I am glad you shared that with her. We will know if we are dealing if an honest person if there is any response or not. It is a shame that a formerly wonderful blog, that helped so many has gone off the rails and was "abandoned" into this weird nether world of now claiming reconcilation.

      Yes we need to keep our selves safe that comes first.

      Delete
  9. Continuing,
    So what do you think, Peeps? I know I broke the golden no contact rule. Silly me, thinking I was on top of it enough to be able to stick my toe in and not get it lopped off! I feel such a fool now. Imagine where I had once stood my ground at her outrageous abuse to spending the last couple of days waiting for an email from her. It never works out, does it? Such a fools game. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that it still hurts that she thinks that an apology like that is all I'm entitled to after the way she (and all of them) acted. What I've mentioned here is merely the tip of the iceberg and the straw that broke the camel's back. I was so right to have left so many years back and disappeared for decades at a time. I can't believe she thought she could just leave me sit for a number of years and then waltz back in and invite me back into the fray, no apology or acknowledgement necessary and that I would acquiesse, as though I had a bad memory or a labotomy since we last communinicated, if that's even what you could call it. Am anxious to here what you and others have to say. I could use the perspective. I want out of this funk I'm in.
    Thanks in advance.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hi Anon, yeah the narcissists want secrets kept. I think in this case conscience should kick in to preserve human life, but even the influence of the sociopaths should be taken into account with these teens. One in the book, goes out to parties and see friends [treated better then the other sisters] while Mom has people chained up. I hope someone out there knows the real story with Anna. There's been resounding silence with comments. An 'abandoned" blog is strange with such turn arounds. Sorry to hear your sister emailed and contacted you. Well hooverings will happen years in. I am still hoovered [stalked?] 7 years in. I haven't written about it, but the "get back in line" mode is still there, no apologies, and some weirdness too. Some ACONs have made the mistake of breaking NC, forgive yourself, we all can slip into that "maybe they or one of their flying monkeys have changed and may care now", with family deaths, maybe some people think that provides wake up calls and changes but I remained disappointed knowing they are incapable of change. Did they take pictures of your brother after he was deceased like in his hospital bed and send them to you, that's pretty creepy and weird on a few levels. Some guilt inducement for your NC, now your brother's dead and you didn't come to the funeral or to his death bed? I faced that over the stepfather's death, [mother's second husband] though I did not break NC. During times of death they can lay it on thick, even dead people who were either abusers or in my stepfather's case enablers to it.
    The death scene with her posting with your deceased brother sounds damn sick. Talk about a narc going on all the way. Even my family never sent out Victorian death photography to me, though I heard second hand before NC from them all, about the emotional death scenes and one person dying and even "keeping face" while doing it. [cousins told me stepfather acted happy, and pleasant, I thought yeah even in death, masks are to be kept and no realness]
    This is creepy even for narcs or enablers, to send death photography to people, I would steer clear of that one for sure. Honestly the emotions with people dying and NC can be heavy ones, so I feel for you. People dream of reconciliation etc, and people changing but that's usually a fantasy Anna's words notwithstanding...
    She probably brought up the boyfriend and his huge family to rub it in at you, especially if you are childless or don't have a family. [don't know your circumstances]
    Barf with the life is super short. {she's got the golly gee attitude here, and yeah the MOVE ONNNNNNN thing definitely is the mantra of flying monkeys everywhere. [I heard that you now over and over, "WHY DON'T YOU FORGIVE, WHY DON'T YOU MOVE ON WITH LIFE, or "GET A LIFE" I can't even count the abusers who had a piece of me who told me in the early years of my no contact as I was grieving and dealing with the pain of those years, "WHY DON'T YOU MOVE ON! Always trying to shut down my emotions. I have some bitterness now, I was trying to 'find a life" or a semblance of one, that they have now wrecked with Covid. Yeah you got the typical enabling flying monkey or narcissist with the Victorian death photography and constant exhortations to MOVE ON. Even with the cousins, I got the "shut down your emotion" messages, even for most minor statements, other ways to tell you to keep your mouth shut and demands to be fake.
    continuing....

    ReplyDelete
  11. LOL I love your response.....when you asked how do we move on? I said stuff like that to my betraying monkeys before I left them in the dust..."so I come back, and the same shit will happen anyway"...been down that road already.

    And oh crap.....I heard the SAME EXACT THING you did, FAMILIES ARE PERFECT, PEOPLE ARENT PERFECT, oh and this classic repeated at me until my ears bled, "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THEM< THAT'S THE WAY THEY ARE" You basically got narc slimed. You know in Ghost Busters when they get the green goo on them, same thing here, it's the same crap over and over. Step back into line and and eat your shit sandwich and smile, it is your duty....this is one reason I am so offended by Anna's "forgive and forget" and my narcs have CHANGED BS [unless it is an imposter now rewriting history]

    They will use death too, to lay it on thick. I actually am a bit more impervious to the death manipulations because well my ass almost died a few times and they weren't to be found [alone in a hospital bed gasping for air, or with sepsis very close to taking me out] The years of disability and also severe illness in 2013 when they weren't around, well I could care less. The Grim Repearer hunted me down and there was no loving family at the bed side, save for husband after I met him.
    I was told too, in these discussions with the brainwashed minions, that my concerns were petty, over and over. That is something they will do too...

    See this article where I describe an incident of this...

    https://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2015/02/you-just-have-to-ignore-little-things_44.html

    Barf with the ball is in your court crap and them becoming a minister. Religion is often a cover for these types. More family bragging, aka look how busy I am, every correspondence I had with my narcs was constant travelogues or endless visits to family or events.
    The statement "I don't know what what went on with you" could have been completed with the the words and "I don't care". Reminds me of when a cousin wrote me, "From what you tell me, your family has been disrespectful to you"[aka I don't believe you] I like your response but you probably are talking to a brick wall, as I did for years.
    Don't blame yourself, I spent years trying to communicate with the bystanders to realize they were all cult members who had been brainwashed who didn't see me either, many with extreme narcissistic traits or covert traits, shallow, impossible to talk to. This is the process that led me to cut off the whole family. So I made these mistakes too, remember I just walked away from the whole lot, 2 years ago, 7 years in, I think that is the time have to look at dates. I get emails too even now which are ignored. Some yeah they dangle the bait, and then even when you respond, get jollies off doing the "busy" game, and don't respond or come back with excuses about how hard it was to get back with you.
    I didn't even get fake apologies from mine, but yeah that's what you got a fake apology and the I am so busy and look how full my life is with family crap. Even your brother's death by the way was just another thing for her to show off with, LOOK AT ME. Surprised she didn't put a death selfie up on Facebook.

    They do come back expecting scapegoats to step back in line, no apologies, no real words, same shit different day. All of Anna's illusions about narcs coming back, changed and suddenly with feelings, kindness and open communication is a fool's dream, either we got an imposter on our hands, or someone who has rejoined the borg and became a narc themselves embracing the cult, or who never was dealing with malignant levle narcissists to begin with. Yeah stay away from this one, they are poison to you. I feel for you. It's not your fault, you wanted kindness and realness but with those types that will never happen.

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  12. Looks like Anna responded:

    "Why are my decisions that only concern my life some kind of traitorous move on my part? I am not advocating other people make the same decision I have made. Far from it. I was being honest about the changes in my life and what factored into my decision to allow LIMITED contact with my Nmom and my sister. I wasn't asking anyone for permission. My advice on my blog hasn't changed. And I haven't endangered anyone with my choices. I respect other people's right to make any decision that enables them to cope with the narcissists in their lives. I have never told people they HAVE to go no contact because that isn't my business.

    I think you all should consider that I've made a very informed decision about my own life and you should consider respecting it. This isn't a clubhouse, and I haven't broken rules that should result in me being kicked out of some group. Sheesh. Feels like fucking high school around here.

    Have some class, people. I haven't advocated anything in my latest post. I simply explained some of the changes in my life over the last 10 years. I am not telling people to make the same decisions I have. Quit over-reacting and read what I actually said. I carefully explained how my decision was based on the fact that these two women are not in a position to hurt me or my family. If they happen to slip back into old ways, I know how to shut the door in their faces. The situation is well-contained, and no one out there in Internet Land gets to tell me how to live my life.

    Give me some credit for being honest with ya'll. I DID NOT SWITCH MY ADVICE. I made some personal decisions that don't change a damned thing I've written. Lighten up.

    Jun 30, 2020, 9:47:00 PM"

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    Replies
    1. I wrote back,

      I wrote back:



      Yes you did switch your advice and stance.

      https://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/04/indifference-is-to-narcissists-as-bug.html

      " To stay with the narcissist is to be sucked dry. You stay with the narcissist, you will lose everything that makes life beautiful, if not life itself."

      That's quite a bit different from today's stance....I am in contact with my narcissists and my sister has changed!

      Warning people of the dangers of narcissists and then claiming your sister is "harmless" is a 180 degree change. I understand some do change their no contact and "go back" and yeah maybe you don't owe the internet an explanation, but the inconsistencies do stand out. Something is missing here. You abandoned your blog, but left it up--strange how you don't seem worried about your new and improved now "harmless" sister finding all these old articles about her and have now given conflicting messages.

      You got people believing you may not even be the same person or could even be an imposter? Does this not disturb you? I know people can change over 10 years but there's no context to your change here.

      It's your life, we don't know why you went back....since this is your "abandoned" blog, we have no idea what made you go back outside of a few religious Kool-Aid words about "changed" people which is beyond absurd if your sister really was a malignant narcissist.

      It seems you would have some empathy for the feelings of other ACONs reading this though. That worries me about you the most honestly. The fact you have no understanding of why people are reacting the way they are.

      Do what you want, it's your life, but I will make sure on my end never to recommend your blog to anyone new.

      I do not think it is too much to ask for someone to be consistent and you are showing extreme inconsistencies.

      I still find what you said about that book, and loving sociopaths to be horrific. I noticed you skipped over that subject. That's fine, it's your life. Do with it what you will. You are just a stranger on the internet but at least attempt some consistency and context for your readers. Some think you are an imposter. Your refusal to examine yourself tells me I am wasting my time. "Lighten up" and "Move on" are phrases narcissists love to use. Funny that. Got some fleas there? It seems you would have some care for the feelings of fellow ACONS, guess not.

      Bye.
      ****************

      don't know if she will post it or not....

      Delete
  13. She posted this. She sounds just like every narcissist that has ever come to my blog. "You are crazy--invalidation" "You want to be a victim"--victim blaming and other bullshit. Oh the words about failure, are ableist words used against disabled people. She sees herself as a "winner". I never wrote for sure she was an imposter. I pointed out OTHERS had asked questions before. She posted it not me.https://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2019/12/conspiracy-theory-about-little-ol-me.html

    It was a theory. That's always a go to for these types, "YOU ARE CRAZY" [ad hominens to refuse to answer questions] Well I think it is better I have found out how heartless and mean this person is whether it is a changed Anna or not. So wonder she defended love for sociopaths in that book. I guess that should not surprise me.....joiners with the system always use terms like that in calling people crazy and are you off your meds....never any real responses. Even her arrogance in her privilege about "moving on" is more of the same. Funny how her life is so "good" in the middle of global pandemic.

    Why do I get the feeling she probably voted for the Orange Monster? If she's not an imposter, and that's really Anna, I am glad I figured out what she really is. These words actually only bolster my suspicions, she has no empathy, she defends narcissists [like in that book] and her going against her former words and no contact, means there has been some major changes, probably not for the better.

    I'll leave her to it, but I was right to be 'disappointed", I am not surprised she refused to post my comment.

    ******************************


    500 pound peep,

    I will not be posting more of your comments. You are determined to misrepresent me and what I have said. You twist my words, you fuel conspiracy theories and you come off as imbalanced mentally. Seriously, did you go off of your meds? I'm concerned for you.

    You appear to be someone who revels in a victim status. I wouldn't want to tear that away from you. I suspect you need it to justify your own failures.

    On the other hand, my blog was written by me to help people reclaim their lives from the narcissists. I also emphasized that it was my hope to help people move past being victims to start building their own good life. When I announced that I would no longer be blogging with any regularity, back in 2009, it was because it was past time for me to stop dwelling on the subject of narcissism. I had offered all the wisdom I'd acquired over the years; I didn't feel like I had much more to give people beyond what I'd already written. I moved on.

    You come across as someone who has no will to move beyond being a victim of a narcissist. I feel sorry for you. You have some kind of circle jerk thing going on at your blog where you have a posse of people to reinforce your world view. You feel free to attack me, my motives, my blog because I said something you've twisted into something I didn't say or even imply. There is nothing more I can say to someone who reads with no comprehension. So this is the last I will ever say to you.

    Do you really think it will hurt me because you won't be recommending my blog to other ACON's? It doesn't hurt me. It may hurt the people who you direct away from my blog, but it doesn't hurt me. You come off as petty and ridiculous and mean.

    Another thing that highlights your lack of reading comprehension is to assert that I'm somehow an imposter. Anyone who has read my writing at any length would know this is me. You can think whatever you want; it doesn't mean you're right. Being offended doesn't mean you're right. Go back to whatever hole your crawled out of and leave me alone. Especially since you want to believe I'm an imposter. Why waste your time wrestling verbally with a phantom blogger? As for me, I am more than done with you and people like you: petty, twisted up and needlessly accusatory.

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  14. She is a snob and a privileged woman who has no empathy for others. Sadly this goes along often with the extreme religiosity. When people write things like "you revel in victim status" that is more bullshit. She sees herself as being above other ACONs. I still write about ACON issues on this blog but those subjects have become far fewer. How many ACONS have been harmed by victim-shaming and blaming and being put down for being victims. She is so obtuse, she doesn't get that I live a life where I have severe disabilities some related to my medical neglect from when I was a minor. {Autoimmune and ACE scores doesn't ring a bell for her? Oh she doesn't care] She will blather on about the good life even during global pandemic and utter and full economic collapse in America [my rent and bills are paid but MANY people's are NOT] to gloat. Also again, she never dealt with the MAIN ISSUE, where I called her out about "loving sociopaths" related to that book and the murderous mother, so it has not escaped my attention I probably hit a major nerve.

    She sounds just like the string of ACON detractors, I've seen here and elsewhere. SHUT UP, DON'T YOU DARE DISAGREE WITH ME, she doesn't even try to defend a position just calls me crazy and tells me I have no reading comprehension. She does come out and say it is really her, but she is pissed, and doesn't seem to have any self reflection to ask, why are people seeing a contradiction in the me of today compared to the me of yesterday?

    Phantom Blogger sums it up. She was never who I thought she was.

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  15. Wow, she sounds like a malignant narc! It is so unbelievable that Anna talks like typical narcs we met at school, college, and work. I had experiences dealing with roommates, coworkers, and colleagues who spoke to me the same ways as Anna did to you because of my skin color.

    I agree that narcs would tell us we want to remain victims, have mental health issues, feel sorry for ourselves, and have a pity party. This is a subtle smear campaign and micro-aggressive attack. Since your head reeled in shock that you began to question whether you were on the same page with her, she slashed at you instead of taking to think before she responded to you. I hope you are not dealing with her sister or some narcs who took over her site.

    I will not refer new members of ACON groups to her pages again. There are plenty of websites that could give people advice and help start a healing journey. Your blogs have been helpful. Psychology Today website posts article written by experts on different types of narcissism.

    I think Anna hates you because you have lipedema. She might be one of these anti-stay-at-home protesters who hate Black and Brown people. She probably supports Trump. She is a fundamentalist Christian. Maybe that's why she is mean and heartless.

    Your deconversion from fundamentalist Christianity offends Anna and her online friends. I am still reeling in shock from Christians who support Trump that I could not bring myself to rejoin conservative Christian churches.

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    Replies
    1. I wrote this advice on the blog long ago, if someone sneers the word "victim" like it's a dirty word...Run like hell. I think some of the Republican "bootstraps" crud has infused into the psychology and recovery world. What do you mean you have some emotions or disagree or talk about some dark things beyond our two-faced optimism and their demands that you better be "happy" or else...[even in global pandemic and economic collapse]....thanks for seeing the smear campaign and micro-aggression. Sadly while there are some nice Christians out there even of the conservative ilk, we are seeing the fruits of the modern right wing evangelical movement and they are poisonous, one newly deconverted man talks about how evangelical and conservative Christianity breaks down people's empathy. One thing I noticed is instead of saying "I disagree with you on the book, I did not mean this".... or clarifying things instead of insulting my reading comprehension, she decided to match narcissitic power and dominance insults when she told me I need to justify my victim status for all "my failures". I have noticed narcissists go on about "failure" especially in their world view where "good lives" [money and status] and "winning" [success] are everything. This is tied to the right political wings focus on capitalism and a way of life that is based on dominance and crushing others. They worship power essentially both in their view of God and in society.

      Trump has created a huge deconversion wave. I am involved heavily in deconversion communities elsewhere. I question the empathy of anyone who remains a Trump supporter. We do not know if both support Trump obviously but the religiosity and "success" based insults are familiar to me, all too much.

      Thanks for saying my blog is helpful.
      https://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2018/04/13/how-faith-breaks-your-feeler/

      Delete
  16. Hi Peep,

    I love your blog. Your words have helped me immensely throughout the years.

    Like you, I have been helped a LOT by Anna V’s blog. I am also deeply disappointed by her latest blog, and by her rude response to you,

    I feel that she is disingenuous. If she is so righteous in seeing her parents 2 or 3 times in the past 7 years, then why didn’t she blog about it? She is a blogger, after all. Her blogs about seeing her parents could have helped people in a similar situation.

    Stay strong, Peep!

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  17. Are TW and Anna V kidding us? FHPP is DISABLED, the sociopath bitch in
    that book preyed on disabled people and killed them. I read the book and one teen was going out shopping with her friends and refused to make
    anonymous 911 call down at the mall. How hard would that be? Those two sisters moved away leaving the youngest behind with their murderous mother their reasoning being, we survived and so should she, it’s only 4 years. The youngest daughter died at the age of 41 and I wonder if it was by suicide. I read the sisters contacted the author and asked him to write the book because they wanted to warn the public about their mother. I call bullshit on that too. The book and the story made me sick to my stomach. I have the kind of sick and selfish siblings whose only concern is taking care of themselves. They would sacrifice me and even each other without a second thought if it meant saving their own skin. They knew the difference between right and wrong as kids but always CHOSE to do wrong. They are the same way as adults. Those girls have their mother’s DNA, I’m just saying.

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    Replies
    1. Thanks anon, yeah it was sick book. Yeah I kept screaming in my head, make a damn 911 call even an anonymous one while hanging out at the mall.....reading the book. When they left the sister that was nuts. Not surprised that sister died so young, probably knew she had been thrown to the wolves. I don't know if she committed suicide, it may have been a heart attack but not sure. I wonder if the sisters are like the mother too, or at least one with narcissistic/sociopathic traits even if they are law abiding.

      Delete
  18. Wow, this is very disappointing of AnnaV. I remember back in the day, there were so many ACON blogs. MulderFan, Upsi, Raising Jesse...so many others. Peeps I think you are the only one left standing that I still come to; the only one not only still blogging but still blogging things that are worth reading. <3

    This book sounds incredibly disturbing. I'll be skipping it in my reading queue.
    Jess

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    Replies
    1. Yep, Peep's blog is one of the very few that is for-real.

      Delete
    2. Thanks Jess, yeah skip that book, I got into it, but finished it just to see where the whole sordid tale would end up. I think I am one of the last ACON blogs up, mine probably survived longer, because this is a blog that deals with multiple topics. I plan to still write about things, I don't have to fit other people's expectations of "shutting up" about it. I am STILL being hoovered even today I just haven't written about it, and it is extensive. Yeah I remember all those blogs many helped me. I do wonder if the ACON community is dying. Sadly sometimes have cynicism that in America the narcissists and sociopaths won....there definitely has been a silencing. I know many have silenced ACONs telling them you better be positive, and you are a "victim" if you ever discuss the past. I don't care anymore, they can think what they want. I wonder if this is why so many ACON blogs have shut down and there's no new ones taking up the cause. I am glad Lise is still there too posting against narcissistic abuse and believe Narcissistic Continuum is still going too. Anyone know of other ACON blogs still going at it? I think narcissist's child is still up. Thanks Jess for your kind words.

      Delete
  19. Many religious sects, not just evangelical Christianity, have twisted the concept of forgiveness. They have twisted it into a weapon of subjugation, so that the powerful cannot be held accountable by the weak. Forgiveness has become a mere formality, the abuser sees no change in position and is often given support for the "reasons" behind the abuse. Meanwhile their victim gets no support, and is expected to act as if nothing happened, no support to heal from what was done to them, anything less would be to show that they have not truly forgiven their abuser and would mean that they are worse than the person who harmed them.

    That is not what forgiveness is supposed to be. Forgiveness is, you owe me no more debts, I no longer seek restitution, you will no longer take up any headspace in my brain. I can still be angry at what you did, I will still have times of sadness and frustration, but I don't have to have anything to do with you unless I want to. At least, that is my definition.
    Jess

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    1. That's because the abuser is usually the one putting a goodly sum of money in the collection plate. Preecher-creecher and his deacon crew are hell-bent on attending a certain upcoming convention - held in a really nice hotel, and conveniently several states away. Good times, wah-hoo!

      Delete
    2. Jess I like your definition far more. I agree with you the forgiveness has become a weapon of subjugation, and it does serve the powerful. I know I have written extensively on Christianity here, and while some Christians have gone down liberation highway which is a much more amendable flavor of Christianity to me, the majority of it does support the powerful or status quo, forgiveness a hammer to shut up abuse victims, sit down and shut up and do more groveling and nice talk to your abusers or go to hell. Some may warn you can walk or don't grovel but when they shame people for not forgiving or speak of forgiveness for the most evil psychopaths, that says something has gone very awry. The abusers don't plan to change and plan to keep the same positions. They can wear down even the resolute, with their head games. Victims are shamed for talking about it or talking about it "too long". Ten minutes is too long for most of the world. It's weird how some will lob that word even at someone who made the decision years ago to write about these hard things and so what if it has been a series of years. Maybe some of us are more committed. I also question those who shame those who stand against "injustice", that definitely is a sign of an establishment person who is outraged. So you are right victims get no support and often are told to be even more submissive, and nice to abusers. That's the pressure from society. Shut up and Sit down. The abuser then gets the soothing words, the butt kissing and the "i love yous" while their victim feels the brunt of ostracization.

      Delete
    3. Yep Anonymous, power follows the money. Which is ironic, what is the Bible quote, something like the love of money being the root of all evil?
      Thanks Peep. I read somewhere that abusers spend more energy cultivating their “witnesses” than they do abusing, (witnesses that they are the best people ever), so then when victims do try to hold them to account all their flying monkey witnesses start buzzing around them in support. It’s gross.
      Jess

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  20. Stay away from a preacher and deacons going to the plague conference. doubt many will wear masks, they all believe it is a "hoax". Staying safe will mean avoiding germ bags, that went to hang out in a crowd of thousands of people.

    ReplyDelete
  21. When it comes to abusers, I'll take the Jewish rule: Never forgive, and never forget.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. sounds good to me. Forgive with forget included, makes you open to re-offense by them. I went through the forgiveness mode to get reburned. Won't be that dumb again.

      Delete
  22. Another thing is that abusers can be extremely jealous of their children. They'll do everything they can to sabotage their children's success. So they'll pretend to be friendly and then will ruin your life.

    An example of this is when my mother and father refused to help teenage me get a job. They gave me all these weird excuses for why they couldn't drive me to work. They said rush hour was too terrible or that they couldn't drive at night. Or they bullied me by screaming at me when I wanted to bike to work by myself. There's no public transit in my area either. It made no sense, especially since I was trying to save up money to buy a car. I just wanted to try and be independent.

    But one day my friends made me realize that my parents were lying to me. They could easily help me get a job. They just didn't want me to make any money. Because they were jealous. They felt like they were broke and struggling to pay bills, so why should I make all this money that I can do anything with? They were trapped in debt and very bitter about it and took it out on me.


    The day I realised that was the day our relationship was permanently over.

    When someone shows you that they have bad intentions towards you, that's not something to take lightly. You should always remember who they really are.

    My parents are also extremely passive aggressive. My mother would promise to drive me to work and then would pretend to magically change her mind later. Which resulted in me losing my first job. My father actually assembled a bike I bought and told me I could ride it wherever. Then one weekend he screamed uncontrollably at me for me wanting to ride my bike out of our neighborhood. Made zero sense at the time. But as an adult, I now see how incredibly jealous they were of the small freedoms I had. They were passive aggressive so I would keep trusting them. If I hadn't trusted them, I'd have called the cops when my father had verbally abused me (it was severe and he also threatened to hurt me) or asked coworkers to drive me home (I'd pay them gas money of course) at my first job.

    Me trusting my parents is what led to my suffering. I'm never making that mistake again.

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  23. yes they want to destroy and sabotage us. Contrary to Anna and pals who called me a "victim" and put me down in their privileged boomer lives, I live EVERY DAY with the aftereffects of my abuse in my health from their medical neglect. This includes even the neglect of my lung problems as a teen.

    I remember when mine refuse to give me a ride or get a ride to the Jaycees, they also had connections to get me far better jobs then I had, but they wanted me to fail and this theme was prevalent through out my life.

    I was really bothered when Anna sneered about my failures. That shows a red flag of narcissism too. Winning is everything to narcs, even as they destroy others for not winning.

    Parents today have too much control over young people and even young adults who are refused futures, even education--homeschooling, and even chances to make money or learn new things.

    I find myself wondering why so many parents have become stupid religious, controlling and narcissistic. Maybe a sociologist could explore this.

    I was denied so many things living far away from my high school--13 miles and the refusal of rides and weird rules against taking a city bus. I experienced all this too, I remember in high school for rides. I once had to walk home for 13 miles, wish I had been smart enough to figure out buses, maybe I didn't have any money on me.

    Yeah they do not want you to be success and it shows. Mine sabotaged my student teaching, forcing me to work and pay rent when I had to work 10 hours a day [for free] at the school. My health started to break then, and then I was denied teaching jobs. I know my weight went to hell from lack of sleep too. Sorry your poor parents wanted you poor too. Mine wanted me poor as well. Neither of my siblings succeeded career wise it does not surprise me. My brother runs a candy scam, and is probably living off Mommy now, and sister has a rich husband but never made more then 6 an hour.

    I am glad you realized young what your parents were about. I made the mistake some of it caused by desperation, to be low contact. I know my mother enjoyed my financial struggles.

    Yes remember who they really are. When someone has bad intentions towards you always remember. That is a good warning. They will never change. Mine were overtly aggressive but did the passive aggressive shit too.

    Yeah never trust them. I know I never would again.

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  24. I am a late poster here but wanted to comment on the events that happened here.

    I saw the conversation between Anna V and FHPP on Anna V's website and it does not surprise me that Anna V responded the way she did. Anna V always came across to me as a Narc judging by how she talked to the various people who posted on her blog. I am sorry for you, FHPP, for how Anna talked to you regarding this topic.

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    Replies
    1. Thanks Anon, I appreciate it. It was a hard one, just the way she rallied the troops and refused to listen was scary. I found it odd, her "return to her relatives" and where she had higher status, that did not seem to be a scapegoat outcome seriously. Even scapegoats who come into money unless the narc family is playing games and doing sweet talk to get their hands on some, that just seemed suspect to me. Yeah I noticed later others weren't treated so hot there. I know she had a far "bigger fan base" going too. She's not someone I relate to at all now. Anyhow that "forgive and forget" crap with unrepentant narcs and sociopaths still disgusts me. It's just oppressive, it's people of the system who sell that crap.

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