Tuesday, May 25, 2021

I Went No Contact: They Didn't: My College Friends' Would Be Narcissistic Families


I was reading this friendship book. Here to Make Friends. from the library.  Its a book that tells you how to make friends as an adult.  That's an area of some baggage for me. The book had you make lists of friends from your past. It got me thinking about patterns of friendship. I realized with shock, almost every friend I made in college, came out of a family just like mine. It was revelatory. 

As people here know, when I went through my no contact pruning process, this included several very long term friendships.  This includes friendships lost from going no contact and ACON recovery, religion--[my deconversion] and politics. Did I have grief over the end of these friendships? Sure I did. I also arrived at the conclusion that friendships are doomed for failure once one party changes radically or enters recovery. This is often talked about quite a bit in the substance abuse world. Why wouldn't it happen with someone in ACON recovery?

While I have some great and close friends, social things have been complicated for me during this life time.  When you are on the autistic spectrum, friendship can be very complicated. I alleviated a lot of my depression via one decision, I am going to focus activities and things I like and not worry about the "friends" thing anymore in real life and whatever happens happens. It did make things better.

With autistics, we upset neurotypicals easy. Every autistic friend of mine has talked about issues in that realm of life.  Some autistic people don't even have friends or very very few. People don't always "get us". I tried to view things through neurotypical eyes, and realized yes I am far too pedantic, and yes I am weird to a lot of people. My mind goes places most people aren't used to. Neurotypicals thrive off of a different sort of bonding. They like those small things, of smiles, small talk and funny jokes. I'm not good at the latter two though I tried. I know a life time of having things be so complicated has taken a toll. 

One thing that can hurt, is you know, I see people with close best friends from college and high school who are now in their 50s, it feels weird, and you can get negative feelings thinking "why didn't that happen for me?" I think back, and all my college friends are gone, as you will see detailed in this article. I had no friends in high school, well no one close enough who really got to know me. 

There's one lady I know in town, she kind of froze me out over politics and my deconversion, and I really was only a "charity" associate. She was my old Stephan's minister. Her Facebook is full of active happy pictures with her and her three best friends from high school. She grew up in the same area and has a close knit family. This is someone with the complete opposite social life as me. She is well liked. She is very overweight but that never held her back socially.  She is somewhere in the 400s, but while she has health problems, she was never disabled and still works.

She's never had to worry about social rejection or not having friends or a family who loves her. She is a nice person, and she's someone I wanted to be closer friends with at one point . She may have froze me out later over politics and religion, we never had any arguments but perhaps my public Trump "resistance" bothered her.  Maybe I'm wrong and Covid simply distracted her and we will meet one day again, with some conversation. I don't know.  She's one of those people, where becoming her friend, you would be standing in a long line, your dance card with the numbers in the double digits. There seems to be a lot of people like that.  It's strange to me how some people are so socially successful and others end up not so much. I do have love and a close marital relationship, she never married in her case.

People like her remind me how family love and support can impact a life. Her family is kind, they respect her, they see her as a good person, I've met her family in passing too. One's family life definitely influences a lot in one's future.

Life socially for me always feels like a minefield. I could be pissing off some people via my Covid opinions. One online friend has stopped talking to me and I suspect it's over what I have posted here about Covid and the vaccines or she could be having problems. I don't know. I've tried writing but I fear I could be getting ghosted yet again. If I say anything more I'll come across as weird or needy. The friendships that last with me, are ones where people tell you what they are thinking. Sadly that's more the exception than the rule.

Some may say don't jump to conclusions, but having lost too many people to failing some kind of test, is wearing me out too.  I got tired. I don't want to jump through anymore hoops for anyone and don't want to censor everything in my brain anymore.

 However, I am keeping my mouth shut for peace, because I had too many social difficulties over politics and made too many friendship mistakes. The activist in me, has to write about some of the Covid stuff, but the world is so complicated now, I'm just another person trying to make sense of it. One theme in life for me that has been hard to reconcile with, is I am not always someone who follows the crowd, and well it kind of destroys how well-liked you are. The crowd could be running off a cliff, but topics like discussing society destroying itself is not going to endear you at dinner parties. There's times I think --"you should try and not be such an 'intense' person talking about all this kind of stuff, you would be more liked you know.....but then I think if this is who I am and the thoughts I am having, what's the use of hiding everything?"

 People have their own choices to make. I'm not so arrogant a person to think I could not get things wrong--I got religion wrong for a long time-- but there's a lot of crazy stuff I have to talk about and if I can't on my anonymous blog, what good is having one? This has me on edge. I talk about things here but I don't feel safe enough out in society. It's made me withdraw and my worries about becoming an  "unvaccinated pariah" are there.  Peer pressure is not enough to make me sign up for something I think will physically harm me.  I've had my fill of medical trauma for one life. Don't you think? I know there are risks of me dying from Covid too, so we all weigh our individual risks and options, I just wish things didn't seem to be heading towards where that freedom wasn't respected. It's creeped me out to how they are offering Lottos and more to get people to line up. All this coercion just makes me more suspicious. 

I have a lot of sadness too over the fact the years I expected to enjoy were taken away. I want to return to just living normal, but where is normal now? My husband is afraid of something happening to me and I am afraid of something happening to him, which has held my hand back on going and "living life". Otherwise I may just go jump back in. The psychological damage and destruction they have done to millions of life with this Covid crap IS unforgiveable. 

One issue keeps cropping up for me lately. It's from my UU fellowship, it's a positive thing. They keep talking about authenticity. It's a hard one because if you are not a person who fits in the mainstream and have undergone a lot of rejection. How do you practice it?  What if being YOU, upsets people? What if you are not a flavor of ice cream, most people order? Some people really like or love me, but out on the social scene, I shock people easily if I let down the cloaking guard. 

I tell myself things like "Well this is who I am, people have to accept it or not." I can't keep censoring opinions or trying to be something I am not. You can only polish off so many rough edges. That hasn't led me to any happiness either. It's something I am exploring. I also am exploring "shadow side" Jungian philosophies, but that's a subject for another post. Is authenticity with this kind of history even possible? I see the healthy personalities who are authentic, who seem to feel safe to even share vulnerabilities. They are free to be who they are. I watch them wondering how did they arrive at that point? I share vulnerabilities on this blog, but real life, that's something else. 

What is sad, is I was finally establishing new decent local connections, and seeing things blossom, that could have grown, before Covid came to mess up my life and that of others. This included new art friends, plans to visit closer by friends less than an hour away, and UU activities which were becoming a big part of my life.  Hope had become part of my new reality. People with more active lives felt a lot of pain too, having so much taken away. It's one thing for someone like me already housebound to lose "having a life" but what about the people with very vibrant lives?

The theme of this life always seems to be locked down, from the time I was a little kid locked up in my room, to my 20s locked down from no money to being now in my early 50s living on what is basically house arrest. One could say my fat body is another massive involuntary lock too. I don't understand. My mental place now is like I am locked down in chains and struggling to get free. I was literally begging my husband to sell every damn thing and head for the hills. Even now I want to move to some remote community that still lives the old way of life.  I get dark thoughts wondering if earth is actually hell and think about that time Chef tells Stan on South Park, that God allows a few nice things on earth so they can be swiped away to increase the suffering, "It's like taking candy away from a baby!" 

So my social life got destroyed, or what there was of one outside the internet. One weird thing is sometimes I encounter friends from my old rural town, the ones who are still alive, on Facebook, and we remember our art and music co-op years with a nostalgia that seems to border on tears, because things just "aren't that way anymore." This happened the other day in fact and it's happened with more than two people.  These friends always hear my regret that I moved away.  One old friend was this nice older lady, she was in her 50s when I was in my 30s, and she had to move away around the same time we did to another town as things economically imploded. It's ironic over last 6 months I have had a few of those conversations and the friends brought up about how close we used to be and how we could talk about anything back then, and I said "yes everything was far more open, we could even disagree with each other, but it was part of the fun and the back and forth." I said, "It's not like that anymore." She told me she was crying, and I said, I am too. It's just not the same. How did life become like this? The young do not realize what is being lost.

I lost too many people during the course of life, things never were relaxed or secure, and it's affecting me. When I did have friends, they were always taken away from me. All the moving when I was young, plucked out of social situations, being moved on my 13th birthday! I went from having some friends to none and the impact would last for years. All my mother's relatives lived on the same street, but I was the kid that got to live 600 miles and then 120 miles away only seeing the family once to twice a year, while everyone else got to enjoy each other's company. That theme too of being taken away from people was there. 

It seems this theme continued as an adult too. Every time I found a place to be and have connection, it was ended and the times where I felt like I belonged were so short. My UU fellowship was akin to my new music and art co-op, and while we have Zoom, they were taken away too now. I've had and have friends in severe health crises, and have deceased friends too, and there too, you ponder how the loss of people in your life.  One close online friend is facing an extreme health crisis. I worry for her all the time. This life is too short. Life is too short for narcissist's garbage. Life is too short for this Covid crap too! 

This got me thinking on friendship in general. When I went no contact years ago, so many friendships imploded and I ended many others that I did think about the patterns over the years that had cropped up.  I've have and had some good and successful friendships, being this autistic, but I am banging my head on the social brick wall. One thing when I end friendships, is I never leave people hanging, I discuss it on the way out. I don't do that ghosting bullshit, which hurts people.

Why is it so hard?  People are under the gun, stress is far higher. I know depression is affecting people now and people are withdrawing. Who can blame them after a year and half of this nonsense?  This Covid stuff has affected people in endless negative ways.

As I got older it got harder to get close to people. Most of my social life was lived online and that's true today.  My peers were all light years ahead of me. We had the money issues that kept us out of regular society.  Normal people had children, grandchildren and endless friends and career connections, while I floated out in the outer space of often housebound disability. The me of the old rural town even with the autism had a far easier time. Maybe when I was younger I was more lively, it's hard to fathom. I'm not sure it's me or that a working class area was far more open and closer to my own personal culture. The people here are often kind and friendly but with the majority being far more affluent they seem far more close-mouthed, and close to the vest, they seem a lot more formal. It doesn't mean they are bad, just different and my personality has more difficulty with this. I feel like I could relax in the old place but here socially that never happened except a few groups.

It's been hard these last 15 years. While there are formerly hopeful signs, I haven't been able to fix things either. I got burned a lot here too. I'm not sure why things were so different after I moved here. Did I finally reach a point where I got tired of losing people? Did I get burned out on life being a grind of always being put in a new place of having to "sell myself" instead of knowing the comfort and security in belonging somewhere?  Did society change radically in those years? Is this why I spent two years begging my husband to move back but economically it wasn't feasible? Now I finally get somewhere and Covid enters in to take away the fun, spontaneity and new relationships I was finally finding. Was all this social yearning and desperation trying to make up for the family that hated me?

 Maybe as you get older close friendship gets more complicated. People are busy with family and careers. No one is "hanging out." Even non-disabled people slow down with age. So when Covid shut down all my groups and activities, outside of my marriage, all social connections were shut down. One thing that happened to me too, is some very cool people moved away. At least 5-6 friends have moved away since I moved here.  Some I have kept in touch with and there is two to write this week.

With this Covid crap, the social isolation has taken a toll. It is depressing me. A big part of the problem is the clamped down aspect to it all. I will have to start living my life again accepting the risk, that I may die over it. I will have to see people even though I have been brainwashed that they are all germ vectors ready to take me out. Living life as a hermit or two hermits together in this case is not healthy.  Here I know the vaccinated have the advantage of less worries on that front and it's definitely got to be a motivation for folks.

I have enough wrong with me, that life was kind of led that way anyhow, but now with Covid hovering over me, it sucks. The stress is affecting others. I wonder how many are silently sinking, a hand sticking up out of a puddle, unseen and not helped.  Some went the path like the British did in WW2, volunteership, smiling faces on Zoom, focusing on the positive, like still bagging up food for the homeless shelter, and doing some gardening or going camping. I have the feeling those who had the strongest family relationships/local relationships fared the best, while those single and isolated perhaps with only work or school and online friends have suffered the most. According to America media, everyone is a well-connected yuppie with 2.5 kids and a house with 2,000 square feet with ample room for your new Paletron work out station, and huge marble table for baking bread in your luxurious kitchen. Grandma and cousins are right down the street.  Work is a few easy hours on a computer that never falters and the Wi-Fi never fails. There's no lonely elderly people denied their friends or little kids trapped at home with no school or social activities.

I worry I adapted too much to this whole mess. What did I do last week? I gardened, watched youtube videos, cooked, started a new painting, set up a new printer--still working on that, did the medical stuff, put new vacuum cleaner together where I have to wash the filters, read some books, went to the library, went to 4 Zooms, went to the kidney doctor, did my medical stuff--that's 5 hours a day, spent time in bed for illness--flare stuff, and did some cards,  Zoom class for the UU, and hung out and helped husband with a few things. Sometimes I feel creeped out they got me to live "the new normal" so easily. I have lived very isolated for 15 months. I don't talk to people except on Zoom. I feel more shy and afraid of people though I did get more used to Zoom. I did go more deaf over the last year and half, and have the transcribe phone but wonder too how that is going to affect things.

However with all that, there's some mornings I wake up just crying. "They fucked our lives up for good!". I will never get to be relaxed at a stamp club or go on a road trip again, taking pictures. There were never even be the ease of talking to a stranger at a park or saying hello to a clerk at the gym.

 The elites really screwed up our lives.  I see no end to any of this. Just so many losses, and why? So a bunch of rich assholes could get even richer? So some creeps could make viruses to destroy humanity? Under stress, my autistic cloaking is harder to maintain. I follow endless social rules not to upset neurotypicals. It kind of is hard because that does overlap with the "not walking on eggshells" stuff one wants to avoid. I'm sick of all of it. 

To survive in life, I had to shut down my emotions, not talk about special interests too much and to try and make sure to keep focused and "project" some energy, but it got harder as I got older.  I know on this blog, I am probably pissing off a few people with my "real opinions" but am smart enough not to buy myself more trouble in real life. I don't relate to people who trust the system. Part of me envies them in that they see the world as a safe place with well-meaning types when I do not. There's too much going on. If you trust in the system, you have had a completely different life then me. The system probably worked for you and provided enough money for you to live decently. It didn't threaten and harm you at every turn though nowadays I believe far more people are in danger. One reason these long time college friendships died out too, is they trusted in the system and "joined with it". The Borg got them. 

A friend wrote me and told me an aunt died right after her second shot, and these reports are definitely adding up to be far more than just statistical deaths. She posted on this board too since I showed her my new article.  I don't want to make the same friendship mistakes I made over Trump, with Covid. 

I always feel sadness at the end of any friendships but don't regret the ones I ended in ACON recovery. Sometimes when you change, a friendship can't survive. You outgrow each other. One strange realization, was how many of my old college friends came out of abusive or narcissistic families themselves. It is known water seeks the same level so it doesn't surprise me, I found friends who experienced the same things. 

My ACON recovery definitely doomed all these friendships. You can change and outgrow people.  I also believe as a young person, I went with "what I knew". For many people who grow up in narcissistic families, this can be a disaster. One goes out into the world with a gaping hole, a void that leaves you vulnerable. I would meet people with autism, who even though they faced what that entailed, they had a foundation of family love or other structure where you could tell life was very different.  Don't forget too here, the impacts of living in an extreme body. Around healthier people, I realized too, weight didn't mean so much.

It makes me sad looking back on things how my family trained me to put up with bad behavior.
I feel sad for younger me, who was so desperate for the love and connection she was denied. I lapped up whatever crumbs I could find. I had fleas to overcome. In my family, I witnessed meanness, how was relationships modeled? It's scary to think how everything was set up about "winning". 

There was so little modeling of anything that was healthy. Facing the thwarting of the life I was building has been extremely painful. I hope to have it back. I was doing far better, being around healthier and kind people, ones who cared about others, the community and more. 

 As I sought healthier people out in recovery, my being raised by wolves made things difficult for me. One part of this was gravitating to a lot of intellectual and far kinder people, where my brain was overjoyed to have new connections like that. However on the other hand, you see the lives people had built, where they had a sense of comfort, connection and confidence, that you wish you had been able to acquire. I felt sadness over the lost years and what could have been. In the latter years of "no contact" facing "what could have been" has been painful. 

There's high school people I am friends with on Facebook, and I noticed how they were able to have close friends in high school and make connections I was denied from my abuse. My parents didn't let me participate in anything except one club my sister happened to be in too. I lived too far away to rebel and sneak off to my high school which was 13 miles away.  I saw them in new eyes. Maybe that happened on their end. When I was very young, I didn't talk about my home life, I hid it. With a few closer high school friends,  I opened up. I saw no one outside of school but I did have my Spartan club and classes, where I got to know a few people. I told these friends who were closer over the years how things were. One or two told me they could tell. They knew something wasn't "right"

However looking back on my friendship history especially when young, things were frightening, I carried how the abusive family treated me out into the world. It was like peeling an onion. Even for years an ACON, will have to focus to avoid bad patterns. You can be eight years in like me and still analyzing some weird stuff. It made me sad looking back how I was treated or allowed myself to be treated as trained by the family. 



I still remember how one friend from college treated me, this was not the Army friend or the millionaire friend but someone I roomed with my senior year in college. She was in the same circles, and lived in the same dorm when I was rooming with the millionaire friend.  She was almost a copy of my sister except she was career and grades driven. It was strange as years passed I get them mixed up in my memories.  They matched in style of dress. They matched in personality. It was very odd but made sense to me later.

She invited me to her wedding but she seemed embarrassed of me and kept me in the corner. She had been a bridesmaid in my more informal and smaller wedding but had not invited me to be one.  This too followed the theme of how my sister refused to have me be a bridesmaid. It was the same rejection for being fat, being replicated.  It bothered me inside but I thought too, at least she has spared me the expense and she had me do a reading instead. However at the wedding and reception, she gave me strange looks, I saw the face of someone who really did not want me there. That hurt.

 She would write me these 10 page heart felt letters during the course of our friendship, we were almost into this Victorian-esque letter writing thing, and I have positive memories of that, but when it came to other people, things were not good. 

She was always "busy", in fact she got mad at me for writing her an email that was "too long" and complained "All you write me is 'words, words, words'. She treated me like my family, so there was this push and pull.  I would run eagerly at her beck and call but where was she from the other side? Years later I would realize the entire friendship was one sided. She kept me around but didn't even like me. I was repeating the same exact dance with her, that happened with the family.   They would put out their pinkie beckoning me forth when they wanted me around but if I had needs or wanted anything from my side, those were ignored. That's not really a friendship.

Her own family seemed to be extremely narcissistic, and years later, some of them seemed to go no contact with each other. Her brother told me, he hadn't talked to her in 10 years and she only called him if she wanted help moving or needed help with something else. Otherwise he didn't exist to her. Hmm that kind of seemed to describe our then "friendship". He was one of my mean teasing friends of my post-college life. He's the friend who dated and lived with the millionaire friend, and cheated on her before they broke up. He also mocked me for being overweight and once when I was at work, while we were roommates, he got into my dresser drawer with all my journals in there and read them all. He was the one who dated, lived with and broke up with the ex-millionaire friend. He showed all the signs of growing up in the crucible of cruelty too, on both sides, as a receiver and a giver of it. 

 Going back to his sister, who I unfriended in 2013, that she was a golden child just like my sister. I remember she never had to work in college, her working class family devoted every single dime to her education, and she was able to get a good professional job via connections of her mother. She once told me her mother chose her college major because it was one a woman could make more stable money in. It wasn't a field she was thrilled about but it would do. She never rebelled and she even changed her religion according to what church her mother was in at the time and there were several changes like this, if her mother left a church, so did she. She went from Catholic to Methodist to evangelical based on what church her mother was attending at the time.  Her brother did not get the same investment in his education and the differences were stark.

Her mother was very odd, when I went to visit her house a few times, her mother ignored me and was always asleep in her room with a migraine. She was respectful to my golden child friend but she had checked out long ago. The family dynamics matched a lot of those in my own family. One child was the favorite, the golden child, while one was the scapegoat. There was little affection. There wasn't even normal socializing because every time, I visited her mother refused to speak to me or even make a meal, or anything.  We ate sandwiches out of the fridge or went out to eat. While one close school-aged friend's mother treated me with kindness, I realized a lot of the parents of my friends hated me.  Her father was nicer but he seemed distant. The family life was centered around work to the extreme. No one shared meals, there was shut doors between all members of the family. Her brother was often banished to his room by both parents.

This friend had a strange view of friends and ignored her friends all the time. She had high school friends she was always blowing off. Some of them would be in tears at her rejection too. That was some weird dynamics. I don't know what the psychiatrists would label her as, but I wasn't the only one who got the push and pull stuff.

 She almost seemed to make this a point of pride that while she was present in people's lives sometimes, other times she didn't want anything to do with you. It was odd, she would call or write me crying that her friends had dumped her because she had not called or written them in a year. I said, you have to show that you care, to keep your friends around. I said, "Everyone gets busy, but if you don't write or call someone for two years, then they are going to assume you have moved on.". I realize her priorities seemed skewed. Maybe she didn't even really want to have friends but had them because she thought she was supposed to. Her family frowned on her having friends at all like mine.

I had positive memories of this friend too, she was smart, she was a very eloquent letter writer and we got to levels of personal sharing in pre-Internet days--I am showing my age here, that I think was rare. We would discuss art, religion, politics, life, and sometimes it's hard to understand why things had to go the way they did. I don't understand it. She would shut herself off from friends all the time, thinking people would remain in her life who she didn't talk to at all for 5 years. She definitely had problems too, many I didn't understand in my youth, especially as she got deeper into hoarding. 

Oddly one problem we both shared was an extreme struggle with OCD. While my OCD made me check things constantly like light switches and water faucets,  I remember her in school rewriting her papers over and over again, to make them "perfect". She literally could rewrite a paper 10 times. Sometimes she got envious at me for my more relaxed view towards school work while drawing around a 3.4-3.5 g.p.a in college. I remember one bad day she got mad at me and said, "You are in an easy field, art education is a joke! So wonder you have less work to do!". Us art teachers didn't get much respect, but that's a subject for another day.

I literally was begging near the end, asking her "Why won't you write, or call?", and that's a habit with ACON recovery I definitely had to give up. Our contact then was only a couple times a year. There too she joined the pattern of my family. That's a hard one. Our split was inevitable, I wasn't going to put up with it anymore. With all these college friends there was a pattern, I was the "helper", the "go to gal" to listen to their problems, their troubles, and be there when they wanted me to be, but on the other side, when I had needs--even for fun--my desires came last on the list. The same message came..."we are busy."

I don't react well to various ghostings, blow-offs, and more, today I try to just write a person once or twice, and let things go but it hurts. If I feel the cloud of "rejection", it is usually there. In some cases, someone may have fallen into depression or have other problems and life problems where they "disappear" and I try to do my best to discern between the two. The days of being the "please love me puppy dog" have to end. That's something probably all recovery ex-scapegoats have to arrive at. One rule I established for myself, is when people slam a door in your face enough times, listen and move on. 

I can cope with rejection better now, in that I did work on separating these things from myself. I focused life more on getting my needs met through other things then looking to people to fill the void. My secure loving marriage helped me in healing too. 

That's a place of trouble for many ACONs and I see it in many Aspies too, especially young ones I have contact with or am friends with. This place of thinking you "must work for affection", after all weren't we taught this by narcissistic families? It is a mindset that will only lead to social hell. It feels like one I am going to struggle with for the rest of my life. This is one place where I remind myself things like "You don't have to TRY anymore" and if you are scrambling it's already over anyway."   Among the healthy people I had to learn to be more spontaneous, to be more relaxed and to focus on activities, causes and not on the social baggage that can make you too focused on yourself.  I'm not sure if I can fix everything but it took pressure off I didn't need anymore.

Then there was the millionaire friend. She was at least willing to be seen in public with me but her mother constantly told her I was an embarrassment and she wanted her to end her friendship with me. Sadly this would become a pattern in my life too, due to my extreme body. There was extreme ableism and classism involved here too. I had a local friend here circa 2014/2015 the "project" friend, who came to me that one day and she complained that her family said they were embarrassed for her to be friends with me, that I was too fat and my body was too extreme. She went from laughing with me making cards to a sudden shut down.  I ended this friendship but this is one theme between me and unhealthy people. The focus on my weight and appearance, just like my mother.

This happened with the millionaire friend even when the friendship was 20 years old. It shocks me now but she never failed to let me know. Her thin wealthy mother was always telling her to dump me.  My joining the UU church, that I learned about from this friend in the 1980s and her family didn't bring me any goodwill at the time either. One irony is one hobby I shared with this friend was holistic health and nutrition and we would visit health food stores and eat at vegetarian restaurants. As late as 2016 we visited this huge health food store near where I live.

 One positive aspect of this friendship is she did introduce me to the UU, liberals, PBS, health food, British music including punk and goth music and the better things of culture. We would eat feta cheese an exotic item in the 1980s, Amaranth crackers and oddly, endless numbers of peeled Kohlrabi, which I seem unable to find today, peeled, cut and eaten raw. Those were days of new discovery, and a lot of excitement for me. She loved art museums and nature centers too.  We shared many of these interests even into the 2010s. One last memory of her, is visiting this large nature and gardens park, and taking photos looking at the plants and more.  She was into a lot of the same things I was. These days I  will remember with fondness. Even if a friendship ends, one can still have positive memories of it.

We did share many intellectual interests, and would get coffee and read the magazines together. Two favorites were the Utne Reader and The Progressive magazine. Here too, the "fat thing" reared it's ugly head. Her mother even as late as the 2010s and even though she had not seen me in years except in, told her I was a "fat blob" who she needed to get rid of as a friend because I would only "drag her down". 

When I look back, I remember acts of cruelty that shocked me and where I chose to "forgive". I almost ended the friendship several times, due to moments where I faced some crisis and she wasn't there for me or judged me for it. My husband never interfered but he had deep concerns about my treatment and was glad that I later saw it. When I ended this friendship, she didn't know it but if she had just shown me just one iota of compassion or feeling, I may have rethought things, but being tired I had reached the end. Like my mother, she never was going to show emotion or have empathy, and those two things were absolute deal-breakers.

There was the visit where she came with this other college friend, to my small rural town in 2001, and we were antique shopping and eating out, and they kept making mocking jokes about me. There's no way the me of today would put up with that. When people do that mean "teasing" crap they may as well be trying to punch you out. It's all on the same level. 

Her mother showed signs of extreme narcissism along the "engulfing" spectrum and she could have been the "golden child" although she suffered from her mother's control for years. They argued for years, but her mother left her the millions when she died. She faced no danger of being disinherited like a scapegoat. Narcissism, and lack of empathy definitely were part of her family's history too. Like my silent college friend's family with their shut doors, this family had the same shut doors and weird nervous dinners. The unspoken anger would shimmer in every room. There was no laughter or smiles, only endless nitpicking, nagging and more. I would go hide behind the New York Times newspapers strewn around their living room while the family argued.  

 I remember sitting at her family's dinner table and her mother would go on these endless litanies, I supposed it reminded me of home, as her mother detailed everyone's sins, what they did wrong, and gave them endless to-do lists. The water heater always needed fixed or some furniture painted or something taken to recycling. Her mother never seemed happy, even living in this large 5 bedroom house with a lot going for her. Everything had to be "perfect", there was a point where I wondered are all mothers like this?

Her mother even during our college years, when I went to go visit her house, would complain and snipe about the smallest thing, her father would hide in his upstairs office. She would clean out the fridge, nattering about the most minute things, while wrapping everything in the fridge up oddly with wax paper.  Her mother would commandeer my eating trying to get me to "lose weight" and would make strange scary tasteless food when I was there. This included macrobiotic brown rice with figs and once a weird lemon curd dessert that made us pucker since she added no sugar to it. The best food in the house was Grape Nuts. Her father seemed like a nice man but didn't say much. 

The family dynamics too allowed for little exploration. My friend checked in with her mother on everything, and her mother succeeded in helping to end this friend's live in relationship with the other friend's brother. She would date one other man for a few months and then gave up dating for life in her late 20s. She would never have a boyfriend again, and I think her mother liked it that way. Engulfing dynamics are far different than ignoring ones. Her mother controlled her decisions. 

There were times her mother yelled at and insulted me when I was visiting at her parent's house during college. There's no way if I had been raised in a normal household, I would have taken such abuse. My friend seemed afraid of her mother, there was even one time, I pointed out to her, "You have your own money--she had a large enough inheritance by college that set her up for life--though she got a bigger one later--why shake in your boots when it comes to your mother? Why do you do what she tells you to do?" My friend never rebelled against her family. It was odd, my past friend was a psychology major who was always trying to minimize abuse because it happened in her family. Her mother nagged her relentlessly. She would dissuade her from dating--"all men were out to grab her money"--and then get angry that she had not given her grandchildren all in the same 10 minutes. 

Our split here too was inevitable. I was holding on to past fond memories. I wrote about more of the experiences that split us up in another article. That said, this one was painful for me. I had been friends with her for over thirty years.  She never tried to reconcile, or work things out. The main reason the friendship was completely doomed was she had no empathy. She was against my no contact. She even witnessed some of my abuse and years later minimized it. When I look back, I do think about the type of family she was in. They didn't show much love, affection or empathy either. Some people grow up to be like their families, some people become the complete opposite of them. 

With the Army friend, I also noticed some commonalities in that friendship with ill treatment. I would take the train to her college town. I still love the city she lived in and would visit it all the time for years. It was closer to my old rural town.  She was always "busy" too like the first friend. I would end up walking the streets alone to used bookstores her town was full of. Looking back it was strange how every time I showed up,  she had an "emergency" 20 page paper due. She never planned ahead for my visit. I accepted this because I loved visiting her city but used to wonder "Why does she always do this, and why doesn't she want to spend any time with me?" It was strange. I would show up, and get very little of her time.

Since I was in college and "used" to this type of treatment, I took it. The me of today would not. My memories of exploring her city are some of my positive ones, but those are memories that should have been shared. I and my husband have some of our most wonderful memories in that town too.

 Later she would call me all the time but refuse to visit me even with available funds and health to make it happen. My husband joked that I was her "free counselor" especially when days came when she called me multiple times and I was too tired from health problems. Her record for phone calls hit 10 phone calls in the same day when she feared getting fired from her job. She always worried she was to be fired but never was. 

 Her family was very dysfunctional too. In her case, I do think she could have been in a scapegoat role of sorts too. One telling detail is all her siblings were sent to expensive private schools, they weren't that far from her in age, but she was sent to public school. Her multimillionaire father acted just like Lois's father on Family Guy.  He once screamed at her "to get off the phone" when she was at their house visiting. He screamed at her like she was a teenager and she obeyed! We were in our mid 40s. She seemed very enmeshed with her family, still going home to do laundry well into her middle age or when on furloughs from the military. 

I have positive memories of this friend too. I could talk to her about anything and did. It was completely open. She could be fun, and saw things in new ways. She brought excitement to the table and also was extremely intelligent.

Most of this friendship was spent long distance, and via phone calls. We talked actively up to the time, I went no contact. She was the friend who told me, "If you go no contact, you will be alone and have no one". We made different choices that made the split inevitable here, she conformed and identified with her family. I didn't. Her family remained disrespectful of her, but I think she saw it as the "price of doing business". Better to take their abuse than be "alone".  Since her father had contacts in business and with the military, those connections served her career wise. Her siblings became high level stockbrokers and one a well-known author so at least she was given a little family help too.  She seemed to think I was crazy for walking away from my entire family. This friendship too was thirty years old, the year I ended it. Her family was just like my own except with far more wealth and power. Appearances is what matter, and success. Work was everything.

I would notice later all three college friends had toxic families that showed signs of being Cluster B dominant. Two fulfilled the obedient Golden Child role with overbearing parents. The millionaire friend had her only real romantic and live-in relationship split up by her parents who changed clauses in their will saying that her far poorer boyfriend was "after her money". She would run over to her elderly mother's house multiple times a day and was at her mother's complete beck and call. The "I am busy" third college friend worried about her family's opinions all the time and lived her life by what her family wanted, I remember she even chose her career based on her parent's desires and discussions of that.  The Army friend I believe was a fellow scapegoat. Given her family's wealth and status, however in her case, she too went with what her family wanted and focused her life on pleasing them. Her decent health and higher status via her rank in the military also took her life down a totally different trajectory. All three friends were completely enmeshed with their families. 

All three friends were against my going no contact. Two of the past college friends, had a problem with hoarding. There was definitely patterns there.  I know now all these friendships were doomed for failure even having reached the 30 year mile stone. My ACON recovery ended these long standing college friendships. I would no longer be the same person anymore. 

I look back and realize now years into my no contact that I definitely replicated the bad treatment and rejection of my family in my friendships. While I have and had decent friendships including people who are deceased, troubles appeared early on.  The personalities of these friends matched those of my family. Their parents matched my own parents in workaholism, coldness, superficiality, and focus on appearances.  Two families were extremely wealthy while one was working class people who had worked their way up to the middle class. Their way being in the world matched what my family desired. Young girls were supposed to do what their families told then, they weren't supposed to rebel.  People were supposed to do what they were told. Even the "project" friend got angry with me over my no contact shouting, "How dare you cut off your whole family!" Her family didn't treat her very nicely either.  Family was seen as their everything.

Towards the end all three made excuses for my family after all they had stuck by their own for life.  I got the feeling some were angry at me for daring to uproot the status quo. Maybe they regretted the choices they made in their lives. All three admitted I was abused, but my solutions were considered wrong by them all. Two friends didn't face what I did, they were respected within their family systems even as toxic as they were. One was disrespected but things were at a different level for me. 

I and the Army friend spent years crying on the phone to each other crying about our abuse. We were two drowning victims hanging on to each other out on the floating debris of narcissistic families. I would call her desperate to have a listening ear which she provided and vice versa. Sadly she would prove no ally, some scapegoats do choose conformity and obedience to the family system instead of no contact, leaving and growing.  That's one thing to remember about scapegoats. Not all of them will be your allies, some stay and identify with and defend the abusers, that would apply to Aunt Scapegoat too.

A few years ago as I wrote about on here, I made it policy to hide my abuse background with the family and my no contact. I am old enough for most people to believe my family died off especially since I am childless. Some abuse websites would warn for those who faced severe abuse growing up, you didn't want to bleed all over everyone, oozing your messed up emotions onto innocent others.  That one hit me hard. 

I couldn't take this baggage into new relationships.  I needed a clean slate and needed to make that happen. It isn't always easy.  Starting over constantly gets hard too. This definitely fixed a lot and protected me from those who would use my history to prey. However that put me in the position of having to be more cautious about what I shared with people. I was burned so much, I became far more private. Maybe more boundaries was a good thing.

I learned to be happier in casual friendships and acquaintanceships where I didn't pour out my guts to every person I met. I learned to be happier in activities. I had this weird view of friendship reading too much Anne of Green Gables that all friends were supposed to be bosom buddies who poured out their hearts to one another. I still idealize that vision of friendship and have enjoyed friends like that and believe close friends are a good thing but I had to adjust expectations in life especially as I got older.

The patterns of these older friendships however stood out to me. My friends in college came from dysfunctional families like my own. Water met it's own level. I went with what I was used to. When I went into ACON recovery, it changed me as a person. While I have some fond memories of all these friends, the cracked foundations led us to where we are today.  It's hard to examine the fact that my narcissistic family made me pay a heavy price when it came to friendships too, but it did. 


96 comments:

  1. Having seen firsthand many of the things you mention, I can definitely attest to what you're saying here. I think the red thread that runs through all these things is that all three of your friends were intertwined with their families in a way that was not, in hindsight, psychologically healthy. It ended up being reflected in a lot of the dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors that you dealt with, like those "20-page emergency papers," and so on. (Which begs the question, if you planned ahead at least halfway decently, it wouldn't have become an emergency, now would it?)

    That's the problem, of course, with being younger, when all of these things were going on -- we put up with a lot of stuff that, in all honesty, we would never tolerate nowadays. I think what often happens in these situations is that people take advantage of lack of experience, lack of perspective, because even in their own relative dysfunctional bubbles, they already were a step ahead of you -- they knew how to take advantage of your (relative) inexperience, and make it work for them.

    I was always concerned about how this stuff would end up, but I'm glad you didn't get sucked into it. That's an irony that I'm sure never occurred to any of your friends' equally whacked out moms and dads, who worried so much about "you dragging them down," that it never occurred to them, it could just as easily go the other way round -- as I'm sure many of those equally unfortunate others who got swallowed into their orbit can surely attest. --Mr. Peep

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    1. Hi Mr. Peep,

      Thanks for answering this one. Yeah I know I have been thinking about some of these things. Yeah you saw some of the bad behavior first hand. Yes all three friends were caught up severely with their families, I would say all three never individuated which is supposed to be a natural development during the life span of a human being. The values of their family held sway. The one with the "emergency 20 page papers" probably had been trained well by the multimillionaire profiteer parents to always put friends last. I still don't know why any planning wasn't enacted? Probably their own "running as fast as they can" struggles in trying to please their unpleasable parents. Even the golden children are put under various pressures.

      Yeah I agree we both put up with a lot of stuff we never should have put up with. When both of us walked out of my family home that one year, hey remember that? We should have stayed gone. At least we are now.

      Yes people talk advantage of the lack of experience, they also saw someone like me coming and probably thought here's someone who will put up with it, because I had been trained to. I would rather be alone when it comes to friends to ever go begging again. You know how wore out I got. I am so thankful we have each other and I have the good online/other friends.

      Yeah I think they were a step ahead of me. Remember when I wrote about the people who "always get their needs met", I never saw one of these three begging on the sidewalk or going without. I suppose too, people who the system serves, are going to think differently about that system too. I know as I got older, they saw me as some recalcitrant rebel, I didn't have 6 figures/millions or secure middle class employment to sooth my nerves and lull me into comfort. It's not even the wealth, I could handle that, but it's what went with it, this being stared down from the mountaintop. Remember when one begged about buying her would be mansion. We have plenty of food now but we were short on groceries that week, I know those differences doomed for failure too. So yeah it worked for them.
      I am glad I didn't get sucked in either. I think of the sheer ableism, classism [I was poor myself even if my family was upper middle, because scapegoats are not allowed to live at the same level of the family even as teens] and more among the parents. It is funny they saw me as the one "dragging them down". Maybe they knew I'd be a future escape from the narc power dome...or something, they could see the light in the eyes they had to squash else their obedient offspring get any ideas. I tried with all three, but people have to make their own choices.

      Outside some close online friends and a few others, you know I have been "down" about social lives and "friendships", and this Covid stuff has impacted it. Thanks for all your love and support allowing me to have the strength to look at these things and make different decisions. I do have a lot of sadness about how things turned out but really what could I do about it. I know others suffered too who got swallowed in the same orbit. I hope other ACONS won't pay such a huge price as I did in early friendships. It is an interesting topic to examine. I hope no other young ACONS go through what I did.--Mrs. Peep

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  2. Hi Peeps,
    I am actually commenting on your previous post, hope since you put up another now, it's okay to post this here.
    I just wanted to offer my condolences for what had to feel like a huge loss, being so unceremoniousely dumped off a blog you wrote into for so long, and by someone you considered a fellow and a friend. It was sad to witness, especially the carnage, seeing their attempt (Bruce and Becky) to rip you from limb to limb, for expressing your concern for yoursrlf and others for taking a vaccine of which very little is known by the public. Your choices, left up to them, were to get in line with the herd, no questions asked, or be unceremoniousely booted out, left to sit in your "poopy pants". NOT NICE! And it's not as if you were sitting in a corner, with a pot and spoon in hand, trying to stir up a big to do about nothing. This is a subject currently affecting all of mankind! If ever there was a time for open discussion and free debate, it would be now. Because, what about the poor woman health care worker testifying before the La. State Legislature about her previosely good health being ruined after taking the jab, whose video you put up here, does Becky believe this is a fake? And while she may consider this woman to fall into that "insignificant and nearly zero percentile of consequential risks," I'm guessing neither she nor her family feel the same. And what about the Indian Dr. Rawat, who dutifully and as a man of "science" and medicine, took both vaccines, and one month after his last one, contracted covid and died from it? His last words before going onto the ventilator, according to his friend and collegue attending to him were, "I'll come out of this. I have been vaccinated, I'll come out." I'm not even attempting to ridicule the vaccines themselves or the considerable effort that has gone into them, for which I am grateful. But both of these circumstances would suggest that a person would be wise in doing their personal "due diligence," and weigh their particular health concerns and conditions carefully (both alone and with their physician) before taking something which may not work for them at all and might pose considerable risks. I think in your case Peeps, you have very legitimate reasons for concern and should not havr been "outed" for considering them openly.
    As for myself and my husband, we currently live outside the Unites States, having retired elsewhere many years ago. The vaccines are trickling in more slowly here, because the countries who developed them want to take care of their immediate population first,so it gives us some time to look into things. I do this daily, as I hope to make an informed choice when we get our turn. At least that way, if something should go south, I will have the comfort of
    knowing that I did my best.
    My husband has more evidence of risk factors than myself, being that he suffered a couple of mini strokes in the past couple of years and has some cerebral vascular disease. He takes blood pressure, aspirin and cholesterol meds for it. His routine blood tests show that he has thrombocytopenia (low platelets). Given that the Astra Zeneca has been known to bind to these in certain individuals and cause blood clots to form, thereby putting him at further potential risk for strokes, which he is both currently and hereditarily pre-disposed to, I'm thinking we might opt out of the Astra Zeneca for another alternative, even if we have to go privately and pay more to get it. That is if we ultimately decide that vaccination is the way to go, which we haven't yet. We live very remotely and see one human once a week and another once a month. I do all the shopping once a month alone, when I travel into the city to do so at the time, and wear my N95 mask and take all precautions. I also wash everthing in clorox and water or spray it with alcohol when I get home. We are doing the best we can, as I know everyone is.
    Good day Peeps, Chelle

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    1. HI Chelle,

      Thanks for posting. I appreciate your understanding, yeah I was disappointed with Bruce and Becky. I did not feel listened to. I expected better to be honest. I feel like Becky was just another Karen telling me to get in line. Bruce I got the feeling, he doesn't want to go against the liberal mainstream. Kind of in shock that someone who got freed from fundamentalism wouldn't honor freedom as a general concept. I'm losing friends all over. Lost enough from the ACON no contact, the college friends, though that was my choice, could not take the abuse anymore and had changed as a person, but lost a lot from religious deconversion and now there's this. There's one friend not talking to me because of my beliefs about the vaccines. I am not posting on FB or under my real name about this stuff, put up a few articles against vaccine passports and one or two winter oak ones but no one was interest. So yeah this is not an easy position to be in. Thanks for your understanding.
      That's one thing I have noticed among the covid disciples, no empathy for my health problems which are immense, I figure I am in the place, I have to take care of myself, no matter where the herd goes. Yes very little is known about this vaccine. I also saw for myself the censorship and more about it in front of my face. No one answered my question too, why are there no medical exemptions being discussed like there are for everything else on the planet?

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  3. Yeah I was expected to just line up and shut up. Take the spin of roulette wheel. All I know is if I end up more ill or incapacitated or blinded when I am already deaf, none of these people will be picking up the pieces, I'm on my own so the my decisions are going to be accordingly. My husband is like yours due to DVT and other medical problems at a far higher risk of blood clots. He has to think of those things too.

    All the censorship and open active silencing like what happened to me on Bruce's board, not believed about the people I knew who got sick or lost relatives...makes all this suspect too.
    It kind of gave me flashbacks. I wonder if I should have a discussion with every potential new friend or associate if they are going to make our friendship dependant on ideology tests. That's maybe an issue for another day. I think the real ones let me think what I am going to think. People who bow out with no discussion, are something else. Bruce basically kicked me to the curb for not adhering to an ideology, ironic isn't it?

    I keep seeing the minimizing like with the poor woman from LA on that video, they say "oh it's only a few people out of millions". All I know is I see an internet where people are being openly censored in most mainstream places, in other places talking about endless deaths, illness, clots, carditis, and more.

    Yeah there's a lot of breakthrough cases, I knew someone fully vaccinated--high school friend who ended up in the hospital from Covid, I wonder at times if these vaxx even work.

    That's sad Dr Rawat thought the vaccines would save him. Some people believe via ADE and other processes that in some cases the vaccines may worsen Covid outcomes. Like Marek's disease in chickens.

    I don't like that they are taking the freedom of choice or people examining their own options. Some doctors are doing a very poor job of this too. In my case, my sister had poly nodus arteritis that she almost died of and had a stroke from and my father had pericarditis, now with that kind of history [even taking out my other issues] imagine the risks of the vaxx for me. I am flying on the edge of lupus now [the UCTD] with new kidney issues cropping up. I am glad some closer friends understand my health problems may take a look see, but the way society is going, I get scared about mandatory vaccines and worse. The left has gone very fascist very quickly. I feel like I am going to have to sue someone if I ever get denied a service under ADA and I have a friend now being denied medical treatment over not wanting the vaxx too [severe autoimmune problems in her case as well] In other countries those with a history of anaphylaxis [like me]were understood to stand down from all this too.

    Thank you for understanding. I am glad your husband with his history of mini-strokes is rexamining things. I can fully understand that. My husband has vascular disease though of a different nature.

    He has to take the aspirin daily too. Yes if your husband already has problems with thrombocytopenia, he needs to really be careful. I have problems with blood platlets being too small all the time. Anemic. That's there too. From what I can tell Astrwa Zeneca's spike proteins are impacting people's circulatory systems maybe even a degree worse than the other Covid vaxx though all of these same side effects are happening with the others. Yeah I think it would be wiser to opt out of the Astra and rethink things. As you know, I think one should examine vaccinations at all. I have major issues with the Mrna messenger stuff, and other facets I've written about. It does sound like you are more isolated and less at risk then many from being so remote. Yeah that should enter into your decision making process. I am glad you wear masks and take the precautions you can. All the best, I hope it all works out good for you both. These are crazy times. Thanks so much for your support.

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  4. This is such a long article I am going to forget a lot of what I wanted to say. I can relate to a lot of it!
    I will never forgive my parents for the abuse that totally wrecked my life. It's one of the reasons I left Christianity. The whole, forgiving really horrid people, seemed really wrong to me. Plus it never jived with the whole "Jesus is not going to forgive me if I don't repent, but I have to forgive everyone even if they don't repent and are destroyers of lives". In actuality I don't think Jesus really meant that but since Christianity became obsessed with that then , well , he might as well have said it.
    I've actually become an introvert because I have known so many horrible people. I'm think I'm more O.K. with it most of the time. I can go through periods of loneliness but it usually doesn't last. I feel bad for you though as you seem to need more social life than me. I find having chronic health problems exhausting which also keeps me from feeling social. But then I wonder if that is just an excuse because you and a lot of other chronically ill people seem to push yourselves out there. I don't know. I've always been kind of only able to handle a few friends at a time.
    I really hope things go back to more normal for you. I feel the same way ,I will never forgive the people that ran this whole covid thing. I think they wrecked sooo many areas of life. I really believe it was somehow to get power and control. It is truly frightening.
    Sue

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    1. Hi Sue, Yes the abuse wrecked so many things for me too. I mean it would be great to have a college friend in my life who still cared about me and didn't treat me like a worm. I even think about what could have been in high school. When my classmates showed pictures of their friends and activities from the past, I was not privy to back then, it showed me how very different my life was and the damage done. Yeah you've seen me post on the forced forgiveness with the emotions people are expected to produce [out of thin air] before too.

      Yes it is one of the reasons for my deconversion. In many ways Christianity paved the way for the worse to have power. One thing I kept thinking about too is how the whole religion is based on scapegoating and posted about that too. Yeah I noticed that discrepancy too, Jesus is going to send me to hell for not repenting but all these life destroyers will get to go to heaven. I figure if Jesus is real, a man that taught real love, he would be horrified by 99 percent of Christianity, I think so much was "added" on like hell and the false forgiveness too.

      I can see becoming an introvert knowing so many horrible people. I relate to that. There's a point where you can only get burned so much. I ended depression focusing on activities and "giving up the local friend search" accepting the limits of a huge weight, aspergers, deafness but now I think I should just maybe practice acceptance, get back into the activities I can, but since I have faced so many barriers, I can't blame myself or keep banging my head on the wall "for how things turned out".

      I had a good group or two along the way like the antiwar club, and past local friends in real life [people who died or I had to move away from] but I wonder why did I lose so many or have circumstances pan out where I ended up friendless except for long distance and online folks and husband? Being active in the groups helped, and I was forming connections in the community, I was doing things with different people around my health but Covid took that away and it's like I'm back to square one and all the people with a huge family around them tons of local friends didn't even feel the isolation. I know the disappointment affected me with the project friend, the false aspie, how things turned out with these college friends, etc etc, I tried to fix so many relationships and failed. There's a point where you think well I can only do so much.

      Add to that other losses, where there were good friendships but they were taken away via loss or illness or death. I think I found my life manageable with husband and having groups for some social outlets, but I worry for him too being so isolated, what if something happened to me and I am sure he thinks the same for me. He has a close friend about an hour away at least who would be around, but he knows I don't have anyone that lives that close, who I've known for a long time.

      It's probably better you don't feel the social needs though yeah you have the periods of loneliness. I think this latest struggle is mixed up with the feelings of past loss. My chronic illness too got in the way. There were times I said to husband, "what am I going to do with local friends if I find them, it will be more pressure and I won't be able to keep up". I let some people down along the way with the housebound stuff. It's like my mind wants things the body can't handle. Oddly the Zoom stuff is easier on a physical level, I know I've said that a few times to husband. I hope you can have a few close friends, quality is better than quantity. I have good online friends, don't want them to think I take them for granted.
      continuing...

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    2. Yeah I pushed myself out there but it's not easy, and even as I tried to build a life, it's like it got taken away and I know those disappointments have taken a toll on me. There's a feeling if I only see the back end of everyone what will it mean? I know the abusive family impacted this, these feelings I have always of feeling untethered like everything is going to be wiped away. ACONS are alone in a way when young I don't think people understand. It's good I have a happy marriage to have love in life. I know things could be worse, and know people who have been left even more adrift.

      Ive had other chronically ill friends tell me they saw me doing a lot for the conditions but it did get hard. Sometimes I think I put too much pressure on myself too.

      Thanks for saying you want things to go back to normal for me. I want even the ease of going places with husband and feeling relaxed and not worried about "germs" from other people. I miss that badly too.

      I will never forgive the people too who ran this whole covid nightmare. They have wrecked so many things, so many parts of our culture and to be frank they have too much damn power. I know I will never feel the same about the system after all this. I know I always was kind of a conspiracy person and people know that from my past but having the worse suspicions fulfilled wasn't easy especially as I was trying to back away from that part of life. I guess they keep fulfilling our worse expectations don't they? Yeah all for power and money, and now the sheer depth of the propaganda and manipulation is beyond the pale. I hope things get better for you too. Thanks Sue.

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  5. One of my sisters, who is in her mid sixties, has all her friends from high school and college. She would never say anything to cross anyone and always goes along with the crowd. She got the covid vaccine and is still afraid to leave the house. I hate the media. I blame them for this.
    But, my Father also had all his friends from high school well into his old age; and he would always say all sorts of things to alienate people. He was such an embarrassment.
    So I kind of think, at least part of it is just the luck of the draw. My sister has really nice friends, especially from high school. I'm like you. Most of my friends have moved away or we have parted ways. I've changed a lot over the years. I know a lot of people who still think the way they did in their 20's. It is hard being a deep or complex thinker. And I agree it is hard when your not a crowd follower. I am not. I've been lucky to have a therapist who always instilled in me that it was really O.K. to not follow the crowd or to be different. It took me years to believe him ;but I finally got it. It is also hard to have changed your outlook on life.
    I was ghosted by a friend once. It was really painful I really loved her and I'm not sure why she did it. It took me a long time to get over it.
    I do miss the days of being able to disagree with people and still get along. I kind of blame liberals more for that one. And I say that having been a liberal most of my life. I'm not on any side now. I just go with what I see as the truth in each situation and I have nuanced views about some issues. And I am open to changing my mind if I find I am wrong. Or changing it back! Lol!
    Great post! Your on a roll!
    Sue

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    1. Thats sad your sister feels afraid to leave the house even with the covid vaccine. We probably have an epidemic of agoraphobics out there. Well I still am having problems, some man without a mask came up to me and I was gardening in my gardening space maskless and told him I needed to put on a mask, in other words back away. He went away, it was just some repair man or something I didn't even know. I have known disabled people who did not leave their homes for an entire YEAR, not even to go outside to a park.
      I think if you are someone who goes with the crowd and doesn't ruffle feathers, you probably do better socially. I hate the media too, constant fear. You know I still watch TV but I got so sick of the fear and the rest, I don't watch any news not even CSPAN anymore, everything is biased. I had to protect myself from the onslaught. Surely there are people out there who need weaning off this stuff.

      Yeah your sister is like this friend I described, lived in the same town all her life, all her sisters right here in town, houses blocks away, get along, close to her niece even though she never married and had children. A completely different set up. I do think I got a bad luck of the draw with the narcissistic parents who moved away far from their home towns, the parent who was cut off due to issues with his patnerity with his whole family, all my moving as a child and then all the forced economic moves of adulthood and when my rural town imploded. Like a whole cluster of everything that will take people away. I've seen people like your father too, maybe they get sychophants they can say anything too. People who are even mean but have a whole flock of people around them and never want for a social moment. Yeah luck of the draw probably describes a lot. How much you fit in too, with the people you live around, economics, education etc, stability of life...
      I am glad your sister has nice friends. I think this local person has nice friends. She is nice, I would rather she be treated right too.

      Yeah even here, people moved away, the 5-6 people I mentioned who I was friends with before or hung out with. Some were activity friends but some were close enough to be visiting a bit, like the art friend. I changed a lot too over the years. Maybe that makes it hard to hold on to friends, when someone is always changing, others don't always react to that well. continuing...

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  6. They keep the same politics and religions of their youth and stay the same so they don't end up offending previous friends. LOL

    I had therapists tell me I struggled for being a deep and complex thinker, I think yes that affects people. The way I think can upset people. How much can I hide? Where does that leave authenticity for someone in that boat?
    I am glad to meet another non-crowd follower. Yep that describes me. It used to make my family angry they would rant about the independence of thought. LOL

    Sounds like you have a really good therapist. Glad to hear that.

    Yeah ghostings hurt. I'd rather someone tell me off, or at least tell me why they are ending things. I don't do it. I did have to cut off someone who was unsafe--Mrs. Curses, but that's the only exception.

    I miss the days of being able to get along. In my old rural town at the used bookstore we had libertarians debating with socialists, every realm and people got along and didn't cut anyone off.

    I can understand your blame of liberals. I've been weirded out. As you know I am a leftist but feel embarrassed I got caught up and some things with cancel culture and just the ideology tests that seem to have "violence" threatened behind them are scary. I don't like either side myself. I am a bit worried about growing classism, and disdain, you know like the "deplorables" stuff times 1000.

    Yeah people who are nuanced on both sides or have different views of individual issues it seems we can make people mad for not following a certain list of rules or beliefs. That is troubling. Glad you are on the same page with that. I believe in examining the evidence and changing my mind accordingly. Minds should want to grow and examine the truth. Thanks Sue :)!

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  7. Don't beat yourself up for getting caught up in cancel culture or anything. We all get caught up in stuff. The important thing is to learn from things and grow. And your willing to admit when your wrong and that's a really nice virtue.
    Also don't feel bad about old feelings coming up again or something like that. Old stuff will come and go on and off. I still sometimes go through a period where I question whether I should be more forgiving toward my Mother. I laugh right now because I am in one of my brutally unforgiving phases. It will probably rear it's ugly head again, but each time I get better at just being with it and not acting on it by calling her or some stupid thing.
    I like what your doing with the Jungian archetypes and the shadow self. I have started to get into something similar. Jungian archetypes and different Greek and Roman Goddesses as archetypical stories.
    There is this really great book called "She" by Robert A. Johnson. It's about the Psyche myth and how it relates to some women's lives. He did one called "Owning Your Own Shadow: Understanding the Dark Side of the Psyche"( I haven't read it). He is an easy read. I have always been leery of the whole owning your own shadow thing. Mostly because I always used to see everyone else as good and me as bad. It felt like it would just reinforce that. But I think I was wrong about the concept of owning your shadow. So I look forward to any posts you do on that inner work!
    Be well - Sue

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  8. Thanks Sue, I agree about cancel culture or the extreme ideologues who seem to want to turn the entire country into an armed dystopian camp. It's good I woke up and hope more do. Something is very wrong. You are right many people get caught up in stuff and these last two years have been some of the most intense propaganda campaigns ever, [on both sides] Yes I agree too it is a virtue tor re-examine things and admit mistakes.
    It's true old stuff will come up. I know I am tired of the same losses happening over and over. I think when a kid is denied a strong foundation when young it can send out waves for decades and decades. LOL about being in one of your brutally unforgiving phases. With me, any forgiveness, she'd spit on it, and walk right over it. I arrived at the conclusion, forgiveness would not matter, I'd be just another sucker AGAIN. The forgiveness types don't get that life isn't always like sitcoms where the family members run to hug each other as soon as one opens up and pours their heart out. With the case of these toxics that's the soonest way to get skewered. If I got into illusions about "reformed" malignant narcissists so grateful for my forgiving heart, it'd probably just be a path for me to end up right where I started.

    Yeah I had the years where I felt like calling for tell offs, etc, took a lot of discipline, now just sit with things. Why do I have to do all the "acting" and "begging", there's a point where one has "worked" on a relationship long enough and there's no hope for it. Glad you have moved to that better point.

    I plan to order this book on Jungian shadow self. One thing my UU minister taught was facing the shadow self instead of trying to shove it under the carpet. A darkness brought into light sort of thing. Thanks for the book suggestions, I will check those out. I am looking at ordering this one that includes journaling work within it.
    https://www.amazon.com/Into-Wild-Shadow-Work-Journal/dp/B089M41ZCW/ref=asc_df_B089M41ZCW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509073194148&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4810919926400749791&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017334&hvtargid=pla-1204930670312&psc=1

    I was interested in Jung years and years ago in my 20s, but obviously the Christian fundamentalism diverted me from it.

    I definitely got caught up in that everyone else is good I am bad thing, that's one of the worse aspects of ACON abuse, like everyone else is perfect, and you're a worm. It takes a lot to get over.

    I think reading these books would give me ideas on future posts. Thanks.

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  9. Hi again Peeps,
    Thanks for all you responded. I didn't comment on the medical exemptions because I didn't understand what you meant. I have probably been out of the U.S. loop too long. Also don't know about being denied service under ADA?
    We don't watch U.S. news as we have no access to U.S networks, but they indicated early on here that they would not make the vaccines mandatory. I can see some issues possibly cropping up though, down the yet unforseen road, of heath department issues such as in restaurants, etc. The potential for it spinning into something really crazy is there, but fortunately we live in a place where things are more relaxed and people are more concerned with a good quality of life for everyone than making it insanely difficult.
    On another note, I can't believe that you went through the "too long of an email," thing too. This just happened to me recently. It all came to a head this past October. A supposed "friend" was up the coast from us about 150 miles, stuck on the other side of the border due to covid. We had become "friends" fairly recently, in that she came up to my house one day out of the blue, crying an in need of a friend. The year before I had given them a ride into the city so they could get a cab to the airport. This ride into the city takes 1-1/2 hrs. She and I got to talking, her hubby sitting quietly in the backseat, and it became obvious that she had grown up in a narcissitic family like me. She didn't use the terminology, but it was all there. She said things like when her mother came on a visit and they went for a walk on a rocky cliff and the mother began to teeter and she reached for her hand but the mother refused to take it. There were the terrible things her mother said to her, to which she replied, "mother, don't say such things," which sounded like odd wording to me, but oh well. Besides the obvious fact that her mother didn't like her, there was also the division and bad relationships between she and her siblings. She said she left at 16, and became a hippy. I had no reason to doubt, based on her still long hair (quite beautiful) parted in the middle and well oast her waist at 60. They also live in a van in Europe and English hubbies favorite passtime is practicing his guitar. They also fly around to different locations around the globe, caretaking people's homes while they are away, or crewing on sailboats.
    She had returned to our area (visiting her son) and she was on her own, being that her husband would not be joining her for another month. She had taken a trip out of turn because her mother (99 yrs old) was ill on her deathbed in the States. She had sat by her bedside until she died for several days, with little or no contact with family. She said at one point she did tell her brother who came to the nursing home that, "she (mother) deserves better," which I also thought odd, if she was an Acon. After the mother passed, her brother came to the home to sign some papers and pretty much ignored her. She said she wondered if his wife had something to do with it. But as the brother was leaving with no hugs or support for her, she as he was getting on the elevator, she said, "Dale, I love you." To which he replied, "I know," as the elevator doors slammed shut, and that was it.
    She told me of her travels, from the desset to Lake Tahoe to see her eldest son, and to Colorado, to visit a hight school friend. There was lots of peril every step of the way, between son kicking her out of a motel room, to being stuck standing waiting for a bus in harsh weather and snow drifts. She broke down emotionally at one point, and was befriended by a woman named (insert my name here). Then there was another, who gave her a ride from yet another stop to her friends house in colorado in a driving snow and her name was (insert my name here). So, she said, sitting on my veranda, "all roads lead to, (insert my name here).
    Continuing ...

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    1. Hi Sue,

      Oh I meant medical exemptions for Covid vaxx at all these jobs and places requiring them. I notice no medical exemptions are being given. if they try to make this stuff mandatory, I think of that issue too. I still won't take them. I want to stay alive. There's something suspect when they don't allow for the outliner cases and try to shove this mRNA crap down everyone's throat from cancer patients to the severely disabled.

      I think ADA could be used with some of the above. I looked up to see if anyone has attempted that but everything is so censored hard to find any information.

      Already they want to separate society into two groups while openly discriminating against one, and that's messed up.

      I am glad you live in a more relaxed place, glad to hear things are different there. Yeah the USA has gone crazy more by the minute.

      Wow so you had a "too long of an email" experience too...that "friend" by the way sounds like a user.

      It was nice you gave her a ride, 3 hours round trip for you.

      Was she one of those scapegoats who makes it clear she's surrounded by narcissists but identifies with them and obeys them like all three of my past friends. As you know I realized that trend with horror. The millionaire friend would go on and on about how horrible her mother was but she'd come running everytime her mother wanted something, "yes mother"....

      That's sad the mother was ready to fall off a cliff and didn't want her help. That's narcs in a nutshell for you. Too good to be saved even from sliding off a cliff.

      Yeah that's some simpering there, "mother don't say such things". I'm having visions of the movie Grey Gardens here.

      LOL when I watched Grey Gardens a few years ago, I thought damn, that's my millionaire friend and her mother except she moved out, [late 20s]

      If you haven't seen that movie ever check it out.
      The siblings may have gone no contact, or maybe they were like mine all brainwashed.

      Interesting this "friend" pursued the bohemian life.
      If she was a Cluster B, you could have a parasitic type there, who gets her needs met unbothered by having to for instant pay for rent or other bills. Did her mother support her at all like at a late age? Just curious. Aunt Scapegoat didn't have to pay rent for years and years. Not all people who live alternative lifestyles are bad people but you wonder about someone like that who gets all needs met.

      I see the whole "martyrship" theme going with her mother massively deep in denial, like my friends. "Oh I know I and mother bicker" or "my Dad cusses me out but means well"
      Definitely the siblings like Dale show disgust for each other, this is often the results of being raised by a narcissistic parent.
      Kind of crazy that she lived that way in her 60s even basically as a homeless woman. I know that is one danger out there, ACONS being "used" by people. In my case my disabilities, inability to drive long distances, served as a barrier against the real hard core users. The only service I could provide was "counseling" no rides or overnights. Husband is type of personality where no one is going to move in. Hey when you get a chance see this article. It was by a guest blogger here, you can see what I am talking about when I talk about parasites in action. I've been needy and have needed help from people but some turn it into a life theme where they would have other options like this woman.
      https://fivehundredpoundpeeps.blogspot.com/2017/12/guest-blogger-parasitic-narcissists-who.html

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  10. Hi again Peeps,
    Continuing ...
    I made drinks and refreshments and listened to her and comforted her when she would occasionally break down. She seemed to be servhing for answers about the treatment she had received at the hands of her family, so I ended up giving her Lisette's book. I warned that it was "dark" and not for everyone, but she said she wanted it, so I leant it to her.
    When she returned several days later (I had called her in the interim to see how she was doing) she handed me the book but didn't say anything. I asked her if it was too much? She said no, she read it all, and then gave me a very "clinical" and very dispassionate rendition of who apparently was a narc and who was not. There was no "aha!" moment. I felt like her silence spoke volumes, but left it alone, and kept it under my hat. On to more drinks and good times on the veranda. She told of how she needed to snap herself into shape for the artival of her hubby, who said was a "happy person" and wouldn't understand. She explained how bored she was at her sons and also felt like an intruder, given that his new girlfriend had moved in. She let me know she had lots of free time on her hands and would love an invite anytime.
    I was in the middle of getting ready for a major project, which I told her about, which involved local kids coming to our place to learn some English over the Summer via activities done on the farm, such as: raising ducks and chickens, planting and harvesting (selling these herbs and veges for a field trip) cooking, candlemaking etc. These were things I had wanted to do for some yime, and thought it would be fun to include some local kids. I had been bogged down in a narc fog after my family reurfaced and triggered me, and I was determined to get out of the funk, and this was my plan. We were a month away and I had alot to do to get ready. She offered to help me with whatever, but she had also told me a woman once asked her to scrub her floor while her husband was working for her, and she told the woman she didn't scrub floors. I would not have bern comfortsble putting a "friend" to work anyway, so I invited her when I could in the afternons for refreshments etc. I did not expect anything in return from her, as she was staying at her son's house, and I don't give more than what I feel comfortable with, so as to avoid any misunderstandings. But if we had margaritas, she got my only margarita glass, etc. This is just my way.
    As the kid's cookbooks, candlemaking books, Sesame Street, Dennis the Menace and Gilligan's Island materials started to trickle in, I shared them with her. Thete were learning CD's as well. Her husband was known to be "handy" and she said he could assist me with the coups, water etc., anything I needed, once he arrived.
    Am going to leave this here for now, have some afternoon chores to do. More later. I guess you're getting the idea of my "too long of an email," by now Lol!

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    1. It does sound like you were there for her. You know I had that theme, too in life, there for someone, where I listened etc, and then they disappeared. My husband has told me I need to be cautious. Before recovery people would even approach me for "free counseling" in public. I think too the weight made me appear as a safe bet, like it was easy to lay secrets on the super-fat woman who was already a societal outcast. I had a woman in a coffee shop tell me about her affairs, another woman tell me about her abusive boyfriend, I ran into both later and they wouldn't say a word to me. One gave me a complete freeze out. Remember I had no judgment or ill words for them, I was the handy 'counseling" depository and when it came to friendliness they weren't going to bother. I did have to establish my own boundaries too of not trying to help or give advice, one thing I learned the hard way is if advice goes BAD or a person's situation doesn't improve, they are going to hate you. I think that earned me one major ghosting. Part of my recovery IRL is to keep things light and fun, like with the UUs and other groups, we talk about serious topics but I don't want to get into the nitty gritty, you know what I mean, I drew up higher walls, because that dance just caused me trouble in the past, but now I can't get close to people like I did when I was younger. When I was more open, like in my rural town I think I got closer to a few, I was more relaxed.

      The reaction to Lisette's book is a GIANT red flag! The scapegoats in denial or made cluster Bs themselves, react to ACON writings like vampires to sunshine.

      That was the reaction of my millionaire friend now ex friend, she saw this blog, and it was the witch on the Wizard of Oz, this place made her hiss and react in a way like it was water being poured on a cat. She got mad and refused to read the blog.
      These types will go silent or say things like "narcissism" is an abused term or "I and mother just bickered"

      Weird with the husband who wanted her snapped into shape. What was the deal with that guy making her wander around and beg others for rides and such.
      She probably was an intruder at the son's house. Makes you wonder why they saw her such as a burden.
      That farm project sounds great by the way, love that stuff, I have fond memories at one school district where they had the kids garden outside at this one outside farm, it's since been closed but I thought that program was invaluable.
      That definitely is a positive plan. I wish she had helped you. You know that's a strange thing with all my bad friendships, none would help me with any chores or cooking or housework. The millionaire friend refused to even help with making meals, it was weird though of course we would go eat out. There was one time I got really tired when [remember health and I have CFS too] and almost begging her one day to help me tidy up because I felt like I was getting overtaken. The project friend was always commenting on my bad housework, and how horrible it was in here but would not help. continuing.

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    2. I said could you help me a little one day but she refused and said "it's your problem" I think I even offered her 10 bucks an hour to help on one occasion [she had a job that paid her less] This was a perfectly healthy person who could have helped a little bit. I didn't want to force friends to help either, and with the one friend why complain that it's not clean when I have told you I have a hard time cleaning. [I have to go clean toilet today and learned to do things in broken down pieces but my place is not pristine as some seemed to expect]

      You know later the UUs kind of woke me up, they helped me with a few things.. I know this was kind of church charity stuff, and I try to give what I can in what way I can, but I thought later if someone is a friend and you can physically help, why wouldn't you? No one wants to turn a friend into their slave, but there was a few times where I really was kind of sinking a bit and helping hand could have done a lot.

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  12. I would say, as far as your run-ins with Bruce go -- you may want to be careful, in terms of giving individual endorsements to people in the future -- I say this, having gone through similar experiences myself. (I'm thinking of the one guy I know who's in a legendary local band, who's also a diehard Trumpist -- I try not to visit his page, because honestly, it's so painful when I do.) The sting hurts that much more when it all goes blooey.

    I agree with the above comments about the "luck of the draw," as a lot of things in life come down to that, it seems to me, for better or for worse. Most of my longtime friends are from college, as you know, because it's one of the last times you'll be exposed to a lot of different people, and viewpoints, like it or not.

    Which makes the whole prospect of, "How do I hold auditions for other friends," a bit more daunting -- it reminds me of that South Park episode where they're looking for the "new Kenny," and they end up picking someone (Butters) who's about as far removed from Kenny as you could get!

    The point being, I guess, that it's not something you audition for. But we have each other, at least. --Mr. Peep

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    1. Hi Mr. Peep.

      Yeah I agree about the run-ins with Bruce, I wasn't an online friend or anything just a commenter on his board, I suppose I thought someone who had escaped fundamentalism would be a bit more open minded or even accepting of disagreement. That's the thing that creeps me out about the Covid vaxx, where people are abandoning even let people make their own decisions for you better get it, or you are to be vilified, even if you have endless medical problems. It makes me suspicious that lining up for it has become almost this ideological tests like. Add in the Lottos and all the push for it, I worry about actual coercion later, and on that alone it's not to be trusted.
      I guess people can disappoint us. Hell I probably have disappointed some, especially as of late not holding to the expected line, but it sucks when people try to shut you up and don't give you a place. Why ban me from his board? Over this one issue? It's crazy. It's dehumanizing too.

      I think "luck of the draw" too does impact things. We both have lost too many friends who are deceased. Some died so young and unexpected too, while I had my older friends who did but it was just as painful. I am glad your college friendships have been more enduring and positive and you didn't have experiences like this, that's for sure.

      Yeah I am overwhelmed with even the idea of trying to "find friends" locally. I was happier doing things via groups, I mean there was some great people we saw all the time in those. I don't want to get in the mode of banging my head against the wall. online things are fine but I think IRL the burdens of the deafness and extreme body may force me to adjust expectations. I'm tired too, like today I have more than enough to do. LOL And one thing I wonder too is I always wanted to spend all my time with you first, so many would be local people could tell. :p I'm not sure if I can fix such a dented social life, but I am glad we have each other too. <3 LOL about butters, yeah he was very different but I feel sorry for Butters, he's a definite ACON you know. His parents have set him up for the Cartmans of the world.

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  13. Hi Peep,
    A domestic violence therapist once told me:
    "You can say anything you want to as long it is not abusive or untrue."
    ... And that whole "Walking on Eggshells" thing was something to give up.
    With narcissists, it's totally absurd how many subjects you can't talk about (but they give themselves permission to talk about anything they want, and most of it pretty hurtful, arrogant and patronizing, and it even gets abusive and untrue, and especially heads in the direction of abusive or untrue if they can't get you to think the way they think).
    I go around with that quote in my head quite a bit.
    If someone blows up in a rage, or swears at you, and criticizes and insults you over something you said that doesn't have anything nefarious in it, they don't care what you have to say. They only care whether you are agreeing with them, and how much you are agreeing with them.

    It doesn't mean you should stop talking. It means that they are clearing out of your life so that the better angels can move into their spot and take their place. It means there is a spot open so that your attention can go elsewhere.

    I got a cartoon in my head one day that narcissists are like a fence and the sun is behind them. Because the sun is behind them, they look black. But then the fence goes away, and new people come forward. Some will stay front and center, others will walk away or stay on the perimeters.

    Make sure the front and center ones are empathetic, can explore different ideas than their own, are open enough to hear different perspectives and have intellectual curiosity. And make sure they aren't patronizing ...

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    1. Hi Lise,

      I like what the DV counselor told you, say unless it's abusive or untrue. Hey that's a good line to go with. As you can tell one theme I have gone here, is people I can be more open with. I am open online in certain places but real life, it got hard as you can tell.

      I was censored a lot as a child and later. There was so many subjects not to talk about, the word I think is repression. Everything with my mother had to be shallow and superficial or putting someone down, there was no discussion of any ideas. You are right they will talk about what they want, and "go there", I grew up listening to various parties be ripped apart.
      They will be abusive and simply make things up. You are right if someone is cussing you out, or swearing at you, being mean and abusive or dismissive or invalidating, they simply don't care. They want yes men. Yeah that's the way I can describe it....constant yes men, be our mirror. You'll find this weird but one day I thought when I was still around my mother, if I praise her then this will work she will be nice, and I did on a few things but I realized I was rendered invisible and couldn't continue, oh and the things I was praising had all to do with shopping. LOL These friendships got ended because I felt "silenced" in them.
      Thanks for saying it doesn't mean you should stop talking, and if they clear out, yeah maybe it's time for new people to have the slot.
      I like the cartoon in your head with the sun behind the narcissists, [aka they turn away from the light....LOL], I love how you describe things, to make sure the front and center ones are empathetic...[I walked away from the ones with no empathy] who are open to other ideas and [don't just want copies of themselves], and are thinkers--intellectually open and not patronizing.

      Thanks good advice. Yeah don't waste years with people you are simply a mirror too, like narcissists. Thanks Lise.

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  14. Hey Peeps,
    Thanks for your replies, despite being given a half of a loaf by me, as of yesterday afternoon. I had medical concerns to get ready for today with my husband, and I look forward to finishing with my end on this saga in the early a.m. So, thanks again. Chelle

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    1. Hope your day went okay yesterday with the medical concerns....going on to your new posts.

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  15. Hi again Peeps,
    So much for getting an early start! That trip into the city and back kicks my bett every time. And every time I think it will be different, but it never us.
    Let me see if I can move things along here. Please forgive any typos, as I'm writing on my tablet and for brevity will not be proof reading.
    The husband came and helped me some, and I payed him. We had them over a couple more times, including for a turkey lasagñe at Thanksgiving. When it was time for them to depart, to go on a planned trip to a neighboring country, she asked for my emsil. I assumed it was because she wanted to stay in touch.
    A couple months had passed and I hadn't heard anything from her. My classes and farm project with the kids unfortunately went south. I had invested a lot in it (emotionally) and I was feeling pretty sad. I felt like rslking with a friend, and she naturally came to mind. I gave her son my email adress and yold him to tell her I wanted to talk with her. I got the "Yay, we're back in touch," email inside a week. She told me about the spot where they were "marooned" along with pictures. I can't recall the exact sequence, but after I answered her email, I got around to writing mine about the day things ended with yhe kids. This was a play by play of that day, and ended with, "and that was that." I never heard back from her on it. There were some other incidental emails between us, so I let it go. But it hurt my feeings. Left to my own devices, I wondered if she thought me foolish somehow. I mean, I had no kids of my own. I had to wonder if it was the old, "I haven't anything nice to say, so I'm not going to say anything at all," type thing.
    There were more sporadic emails between us, like when she decided yo what she first referred to as a blog, then a journal. It amounted to a nice form letter for family and friends about the place they were in, complete with beautiful pictures of the nature there, and written like one might narrate an exciting adventure. I aswered it, with complimentary things to say. And one of the stories she told inspired me to make a play on words regarding the "Absolutely Fabulous," English situation comedy series, about when Patsy and Eti took a trip to France and took the caretaker's house for their accomodations and moved in. The caretaker kept coming back peering into the windows to see if they were still there (something my "friend" was going through up the coast) trying to explain to them in French, which neither understood, that their chateau was up the hill. I ended that email with "So, perhaps your chateau awaits," Never heard one word back. It too was a long email, complete with a recipe for homemade mounds bars, using the coconuts she said they were finding on the beach, to mix it up on their netflix movie nights and the nightly chocolate bar she said they were sharing. I thought this odd too. Once again, there were other less significant emails being answered (briefly) so I didn't feel the need to ask if perhaps they didn't receive it, YET.
    They had moved from (the caretakers place) on the hill to the beach. From nearly the first ("Yay") email, I had been informed about the inconvience of communicationg with me. Up on the hill, they received wifi at their place but "sporadically". Once down on the beach, I was informed that now they had no wifi at yheir place, but had to "walk up the beach 50 yards," to the nearest Yfi. After that, "the rains had set in." Then, there was "no roof on the wifi terrace," and she couldn't risk getting her tablet wet, as it was all they had left." The goal post kept moving until it ended on our very last communication by her with, "word is going round that the only tower servicing this tiny town id being worked on,so

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    1. You know I never heard of bread crumbing before, reading through your posts Chelle, wow that brings a few revelations, I sometimes would refer to it as "nickel and diming" me, that's more the local term for it here. Where people throw you a few crumbs to keep you in the game. On days other people aren't useful to them where they are being parasitic, they have to find ways to hold someone off whose not needed. Picture this of a closed door. Now every relationship has boundaries but types like this will be slamming the door, only wanting to open it on THEIR TERMS for using--don't dare to have needs or even desire for company or friendship on the other end, so the bread crumbs and nickels and dimes come later.

      Going into the city from the country would tire anyone out. Hope it went okay. I can handle the types, I don't edit the comments from my end either.
      Yeah exchanging emails is natural. That's too bad she didn't write you back for so long. Oh the farm project failing had to be a blow. Sorry to hear that didn't work out for you. Those type of projects are so needed too, but I know there's endless details and other things that have to click into place.
      I wish she had been supportive to you or been able to talk to you and offer some encouragement. So she gave you a yeah we are back in touch and then all
      HER side. It's a bad sign that she didn't remark on any of your recent life events or facing this painful outcome, yeah red flag there. I know I sometimes have failed on that account with friends, Aspie stuff, and poor working memory, sometimes have to go down list with friends to make sure I remember things but if someone doesn't even give one line about what has gone on with you or asked questions about it. Like What happened? That's not a good sign.
      I know I would wonder if she thought ill of my project. One thing too when people ignore something so important to you it is not a good sign and happened to me too, with these "friendships", like if you broached a topic they would shut down. Remember how I posted about my early years of no contact and how painful they were, the threesome discussed on here, would not talk to me at all about the subject and few times I brought it up, absolute silence.
      So that leaves a gap, here you are with such an immense disappointment and she ignores it, and inside you wondered does she think I am foolish? I would too.
      continuing....

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    2. A lot of negative types often hate dreams. [none of these friends came to my DIY art shows years ago, that should have been a warning [I had a big DIY art show--2 events in 2006] You asked her for help and involvement and she just blocked you out but even if she had no time for that kind of involvement totally blocking you out stinks.

      We have to be careful of giving people like this too much benefit of the doubt. I went down that road too, always worried about saying the "wrong" thing when they really were treating me badly.

      Her letters sounds like bragging letters. I kind of have the jaundiced eye now for those who send stuff like that, I realized narcissism went deep in my family even that godmother with her status Christmas letters, look at all the good jobs all my children and grandchildren have. She's more of a bohemian parasitic type from what I am seeing, but guess she's bragging about her adventures then. That's a red flag for narcissists I also learned to pay attention to. Do they brag a lot? [Not saying I am innocent here, I do tend to plaster my Facebook with a lot of art work etc] but when you get those ultra cheery, "life is a bowl of cherries, look at all my adventures, I fulfilled my bucket list," maybe time to watch out....

      You know this is some of the charisma that can bring people in the door but leave them hanging later.
      That sounds like a good show, I watch a lot of BBC, but seems she would have appreciated that joke or something. Yeah the homemade mounds bar thing sounds weird, like whose going to do that every single day.
      She sure seemed to have a lot of excuses about contacting you. Yeah that would bug me. I can understand someone in a life crisis, there's varieties of those but sounds like she was just leading you on a tether, like carrot on the stick.

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  16. Hi again Peeps,
    Continuing ... Had written too much and had to erase some. Let me see if I can regain my train of thought (such as it is today, Lol.)
    She said, "word is going round that the only tower servicing this tiny town is being worked on, so don't know when I will be able to send this to you ..." That elipses, or whatever it is called, was very telling to me as my mother used it all the time, usually after laying a big turd of some kind and indicating that the "ball" was now in your court as to how you were going to deal with it. Needless to say, there was no lag in communication whatsoever.
    There became a point in time, when I told her not to bother checking the wifi, that we were all no doubt getting a little tired of this tack (the pandemic) and surely looked forward to taking another soon. I ended with, "will hopefully see you on the flip side." Fortunately I still had this one to refer back to, as it was June 8th, 2020. She had just kissed me off again, and I felt completely disrespected. Well don't you know, miracle of all miracles, she turned into a human being the very next day, and came with all she should have begore. Pictures of their new cabin on the beach, the great "thanks for all the kindnesses you have shown (her son) etc. So she knew what she was suppose to do all along! She was purposely bread crumbing me. Honestly, what a bitch!
    Am going to post this now and hopefully reread to get some perspective. Chelle

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    1. Yeah she was doling out crumbs, one thing with some of these types, is they make themselves so sparse, but I think that's a way to control people. Reminds me of the college roommate friend. Some of her friends would be begging for her company, even worse then me. I think she ENJOYED this type of thing....a way to keep people at an arms length not demanding much of them but if they were in need they had them still on the roster. I'm glad you told her Ill see you back on the flip side and that's when she came running, that says it all. She was laying about all the problems, it's another manipulation tactic. UGH. Seen too much of that. It's a way you know to make someone else do all the work of the relationship too, where she can just issue all her bragging edicts on high.... Yeah this person does not sound like a positive one whatsoever.

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  17. Peeps,
    Thanks for putting these up quickly for me to review and continue. I'm going to leave it here until tomorrow. It's obvious how tired I am with all the typos and lack of paragraphs etc. Will get rested and hopefully finish this saga then. Feel free to comment in the meantime of course, I appreciate your input. Thanks. Chelle

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  18. correction: Laying above should be lying...she was lying about all the problems

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  19. Hi Peeps,
    Am feeling like a new person today. Thanks for your concern over the medical stuff. It's nothing too serious, in that he is not ill, but the tendons in his finger next to the pinky finger, have been tightenjng up, and drawing that finger in towrds the palm for some time now. It's just gotten to the point where it's uncomfotable. We went to see the right guy here, and he spoke perfect English so my husband was able to communicate with him directly and nothing got lost in translation. The answer is surgery of course, but quite a bit more involved than what we had imagined. Would be him (trauma surgeon) and a plastic sugeon for the vascular issues in the hand, to avoid it turning black and necrotic. Anyway, husband says he thinks not, sounds too expensive. Yet to get the price. But I said, well wait just a minute, if you were a millioare and money was not an issue, would you have it done? He said, no. I said, well that's different then.

    Thanks for you commented here on my woes with this woman. I think you have a very good grasp on the situation. By now I know (in hindsight) that she had me penciled in on her calendar for every year when she came here to visit her son. This was her place to come to get away from it all, and be basically wined and dined with nothing asked in return. I think she was full of it, with acting like we were such great friends crap, and probably thought I might figure it out through emails (especially done in the light of day without cocktails) I would still like to share the last round of these with you, because there came the third long email she completely ignored, and this one I was not going to let go. I was like a dog with a bone. Especially given the circumstances surroung the email, which were that I got stung by a scorpion on the back of my neck at 10:30 p.m. on a saturday night in splendid pandemic and in lockdown. I drove myself to the local clinic out of an abundance of caution (mostly because of the location of the sting) and ended up be taken in an ambulance despite my wishes to the contrary, and inyo a city and hospital in lockdown, and my only trans out was parked back at the clinic more than an hodriv drive away. The spirit of this email was more of a comedy of errors than anything remotely serious, but did involve me being tossed into a hospital setting, with payients sitting up in their beds, trying to catch their breath with the aid of an oxygen mask etc. It also involved her own son, who was the person I called initially to help me by going to tell my husband I was okay. I had to insist to the docor and ambilance driver not to put yhe siren or lights on as they were driving by my house, as it might give my husband a stroke, thinking I had become gravely ill. Our little neighbor girl had just died from a sting a couple months earlier. This saga went on until sun up, involving a local cab driver who had no gas and no way to get any. The guy who dispenses gas illegally locally was asleep and not answering his phone at 3:00 a.m., to her son, to the clinic and hospital where I went, all i timayely familiar to her. She and hubby lived here previousely for eight years! Anyway, more on this later, but no, I wasn't going to let this go unanswered without an explanation.
    A couple of things you touched on here, such as counciling people and then having them disappear. This is not the first time you have answered my concerns here on your blog, and on a couple of occasions I kind of ended up disappearing in that I didn't follow up as I should have and probably lagged in commenting after. I should have, but was probably off on some other things that needed attending. I just wanted to say thank you now, and to let you know that I have always appreciated your time and thoughtfulness. I did try and return the favor here and there, suggesting certain blogs you might find interesting ...continuing

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  20. Hi again Peeps,
    Continuing ... yes I had suggested a blog you might enjoy, some youtubes, and some art projects ideas which might earn you some income. Some of these were not for you, and I didn't feel the need to push. I had delivered my message and what you chose to do with it was up to you. That's what I don't get about the Bruce and Becky's of the world. It's not a matter, in my opinion, that we must all feel the exact same way. It's not a matter of, "you're either for us or against us," type of mentality. And speaking of lining up with herd, on a comical note, don't know if you saw this yourself or not, but a while back on paid tv, we saw a hidden camera type show ala allan Funt, this one in Vegas, where they put a short portable railing up, and had a couple of their people stand in line, looking very enthusiastic about it all, dressed in their tourist garb, and the line began to increase. This was in the center of this runthrough type mall area, and it was plain for anyone who cared to look and see, that this line was going nowhere. It got rediculousely long, which was hilarious. (kind of). You would NEVER have found me in that line. And I know I would never have found you in it either.
    I understand you keeping your feelings about the vaccine close to your vest too. Even here recently, my husband was to have two teeth worked on, and I had to run off and do something else to take advantage of the time, and I told him not to tell the dentist he was considering not getting vaccinated, as we already knew how skitsy he was from past events, such as insisting he get a note from his cardiologist before he would work on him, given his mini strokes. I only mentioned them because there is a certain type of anestesia they use on hipertensive people, but we ended up having to leave that day and come back later with our "permission slip" in hand. Better read over this to get some perspective again.

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  21. Hi again Peeps,
    Continuing ... yes I had suggested a blog you might enjoy, some youtubes, and some art projects ideas which might earn you some income. Some of these were not for you, and I didn't feel the need to push. I had delivered my message and what you chose to do with it was up to you. That's what I don't get about the Bruce and Becky's of the world. It's not a matter, in my opinion, that we must all feel the exact same way. It's not a matter of, "you're either for us or against us," type of mentality. And speaking of lining up with herd, on a comical note, don't know if you saw this yourself or not, but a while back on paid tv, we saw a hidden camera type show ala allan Funt, this one in Vegas, where they put a short portable railing up, and had a couple of their people stand in line, looking very enthusiastic about it all, dressed in their tourist garb, and the line began to increase. This was in the center of this runthrough type mall area, and it was plain for anyone who cared to look and see, that this line was going nowhere. It got rediculousely long, which was hilarious. (kind of). You would NEVER have found me in that line. And I know I would never have found you in it either.
    I understand you keeping your feelings about the vaccine close to your vest too. Even here recently, my husband was to have two teeth worked on, and I had to run off and do something else to take advantage of the time, and I told him not to tell the dentist he was considering not getting vaccinated, as we already knew how skitsy he was from past events, such as insisting he get a note from his cardiologist before he would work on him, given his mini strokes. I only mentioned them because there is a certain type of anestesia they use on hipertensive people, but we ended up having to leave that day and come back later with our "permission slip" in hand. Better read over this to get some perspective again.
    Another thing I wanted to comment on was the failed farm project I attempted here. I have not given up on the idea of trying it again, but this time with a more age appropriate group. I had kids ranging in ages from 5 to eleven, with all numbers in between. I think ages 10-13 might be better. The initial problem I had was with the transportation, which I had arranged for with the most responsible and interested parent involved with a car. Problem was, he was in the middle of a split with his wife, who decided to ignore these plans already in place and take the kids on a summer vacation for a monmo, far far away. I thought I could still count on the Dad despite this, but soon I was picking up and delivering the kids before and after, when I should have been preparing for their arrival and "hostessing."
    The other thing was, that while the parents came to begin with, I didn't really have anyone to help me with supervision, while I was doing things like for instance cooking on the stove. My back would be turned for 30 seconds maybe at a time, and they would use this to go off and see what thay could "get into" instead of having the payience (maturity) to wait a minute. Continuing ...

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  22. Hi Peeps,
    Continuing ... They were getting into things like going out onto the veranda outside where I had a planter around a huge tree in the patio with gravel and shiny glass stones around it, and picking these up to fill their pockets with. I told them on the very first day not to do that (infront of their parents) because there might be scorpions in there. Which I had seen and been stung.
    These glass beads were for the purpose, come to find out, of tossing on the tile floor to get a rise out of our partot sitting on her perch, and getting her to fly across the room. Problem was, these were ricocheting onto the sliding glass window, which we had recently replaced for $300. after what started as a tiny nick in the glasd, and then turned into a large crack. There was yet more that day, but I don't want to dispariage the kids or their behavior further. Suffice to say, I had to rethink things. I did tell the parents that we would continue with our harvest (outside activity) and the selling of our crop for yhe planned field trip to a water park. This was March 5, and the pandemic hit here the 9th. So that was the end of that!

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  23. Good morning Peeps,
    The bread crumbing thing I learned from Dr. Ramani on on her youtube videos. Hers are more of a superficial "behavioral" type anaylisis of narcissists, whereas Sam Vaknin goes way deeper. I've really learned alot from him.
    Like you say here, about how we need to be careful of giving certain types the benefit of the doubt, he says the same, and says that's how we, as supposed "knowing" acons, get re-injured and re-triggered, by attributing our own attributes onto narcissists, which do not posess them. He says we are not even remotely similar, not even of the same species. I totally did that with this woman. Looking to her problems with her narcissistic family, lead me to make statements to her like, "they're not like you," which was a huge assumption, based on the fact that I barely knew her. In one humorousely presented video of Vaknins, on how to become "immune" from the "wild" or "garden variety" narciists, like covid, he suggest getting together, in an outside setting, wearing your mask and practicing "social distancing." He claims that at some point in time you will become repulsed the narcissist, that you will feel something is "off", at which time you should "wash your hands," and be done, all the while not having given them any "supply". If only, right? I'm getting there, but then something like this happens with this woman and I feel set back. If things continue like this, I can see a time in the not too distant future where it will be just me, sitting alone.
    As for what was up with the hubby, letting her hitch rides, she said she had purchased an online bus ticket, but got confused and was at the stop a couple hours early. She said to the driver of the bus, who told her he could not accept her ticket, "you aren't going to leave me out here slone are you?" so he took her to the nearest depot, where she said the homeless hang out, so they purposely had no places (benches) to sit and no heating. She said that's where she spent the $20. the woman with my name gave her, for coffee for all concerned and she was "paying it forward."
    She took the bus from there to Colorado, where she was surprising her friend, and that's why she didn't have a ride. Also this nomadic "gypsie" like lifestyle is old hat to them. Chelle, continuing ...

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  24. Hello again,
    Continuing ... this "gypsie" nomadic lifestyle was old hat, which may have started when she left the states with her young underage son, to escape his narcissist father, whom had also received a blow to the head, resulting in traumatic brain injury, and which caused her to fear for her and her young son's safety. She worked under the table illegally in many countries, and had her kid enrolled under an assumed name. Living under the radar with no vehicle, moving from place to place, became a way of life. (I'm not concerned with bringing this up now because her kid is in his early thirties now, in touch with his brother, and presumably any other family he wants to be.)
    You ask if her mother supported her, and I think definately not. But she had been married, and when the diorce came about, she took off, with presumably her half of the settlement.
    As for her circumstances up the coast, possibly too "busy" to snswer at any lenghth, but should have at least said something- They were in a border town that had no roads. The food for the town artived by mailboat. The mode of transportation in the tiny town were wheelbarrows. They knew no one there and were renting. They did not work from their computer. They were stuck there in a lockdown situation, and the border was closed. Their time there, according to them, consisted of taking a swim in what she referred to as "the silky caribbean" once or twice a day, while they hung their tablet in a tree to charge up for and download that nights "netflix". They were playing some dominoes with the locals, and cold beers and food were being delivered to their gate every afternoon by wheelbarrows. She said the landlady washed their clothes and linens once a week on saturdays, fed them lunch and made them eat her freshly made coconut icecream. They were picking up mangoes and avocados for making mango butter and guacamole. They were stuck there from March-December...
    Continuing ...

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  25. Hi again Peeps,
    Continuing ... they were stuck there from march-dec. I think maybe it's time you hear from the woman herself. This is the last email I got, when I pressed her on why she had not answered my email about the scorpion sting. I told her 1500 words by me=NOT ONE WORD from her was not normal, and there was obviousely something up with it. This is what I got in return.
    "I received your last message last night when the rain had quit long enough for us to go down to yhe beach yo connect yo YFI again. We hadn't been able to get a decent signal for several days and had quite a number of things to deal with so I was not able to reply to correspondence at all until this morning here at home and word is going round that our only tower fot the village is being worked on and there will be no internet at all until further notice. So don't know when I will be able to transfer my emails to yahoo and send this ...
    I am extremely saddened that it appears that I am atill unable to find the right words to make ammends for what I understand to be my failures to respond tou adequately. I wish you could believe that it has not been for a lack of trying or interest. In numerous messages I have tried to make clear the challenges here in this remote place with internet communication but perhaps I haven't gotten across to you how this is compounded by the number of people and situations I'm currently trying to respond regularly to in just the last few weeks. I've decided that it might help to list just the pressing ones to give you a clearer picture after reading that you yhi k I have "nothing else to do". Normally I don't go into personal matters much ss I don't feel anyone is interested and I'm a fairly private person, (husband) even more so, but this is my last ditch effort to create more understanding between us so forgive me if I bore you with some details.
    Current family and other issues in just the last month:
    My oldest son is coping with panic attacks brought on by uncertainty regarding his job and the pandemic. We try and talk every yime I can get yo YFI.
    Husband's youngest son in England has had a breakdown due to stress from isolation and no work. We are continually trying to find a way to help from such a distance but he's become increasingly and distressingly angry with everone. We're very worried about him at the moment.
    (Husband's) only living brother has had an embolism burst in his head two weeks ago that instantly left him blind.
    (Husband's) brother's son-in-law in the same week hsd a spinal stroke that has left him completely paralyzed. The entire family is trying to raise enough money for his rehabilitation therapy because the National Health Service is overloaded die to the pandemic and hasn't the resources.
    At every opportunity we are trying to receive information from family, friends and embassies over the internet about how we get (husband) back to Europe and when it might be possible. I will not be able to go with him because I carry a U.S. passport so must figure out what to do for myself as well. (Husband) isn't happy about this either. Continuing ...

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  26. Hi again Peeps, commenting ...
    (Husband) isn't happy about this either. Every time we have internet we are checking for flights and trying to arrange something that allows us to use the vouchers we have from our previousely cancelled flights. So far, no dice.
    In the midst of all this our bank in England has changed their rules and we have been locked out of our accounts due to not having a current British phone number and we can't change it without actually going in to the bank's offices! (Husband"s) younger son is trying to hrlp with this so we must try and stay in close touch.
    (This town) has reopened for tourism as of yesturday and our YFI spot at the hostal is now busier with very little space for social distancing and few chairs so we must deal with that when there actually is internet and then there are more devices using the limited band width until it slows to nothing at times. It makes us frantic! Most of the current visitors are from (") or (") where the virus is still increasing so we are more than a little alarmed anout this situation.
    Every couple of weeks we have to decide about money transfers and rent based on what we THINK might happen regarding our ability to leave, then everything changes again due to the governments changing their Lockdown rules here in (") or (") or ("), where our camper van is waiting. This causes constant stress. -A young couple from Europe that we've become quite close to here in 8 months of quarentine together have been able to get flights out to (") so we made the journey by boat down the coast to see them off ... continuing

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  27. Continuing ...
    so we made the journey by boat down the coast to see them off and missed 2 days of possibke internet last week due to being gone overnight. More guilt but we truly needed the break as well.
    -With all of this we have family and close friends in England, Scotland, Canada, the U.S., Mexico, Germany, Spain and Malaysia who continually make contact to check on us, worried that we have been locked down here for so long and wanting to know when we can get out and whether we need anything. I honestly try and send everyone a short but personal reply as we are grateful to be remembered and worried about. This takes a lot of time and causes much frustration when the rain returns and I can't even go send the messages. As there is no roof there on the YFI terrace I can't risk sitting in the rain getting our tablet wet. My laptop gave up months ago and it's all we have left. Last but not least has been the terror and shock of (son's girlfriend) near death experience which we are still trembling from the thought of months later. It's been a brutal season for us all! We've been beside ourselves with frustration so often at being only a few hundred miles away and not being able to get there to support and help those we care so much about, you and (hubby) included. Let alone be able to get to our family in England.
    I'm not whining but only trying to give a clearer picture of our situation here and how we're doing our very best to cope. (Husband) is doing most of the cooking and shopping so that I can deal with most of the rest. He has lost weight again due to yhe stress over family and little appetite. I could wish for the same for me but he really can't afford to lose any more and it's worrying.
    If you look back dear friend perhaps you can see that through all of this I have written you numerous times, always tried to send an answer as soon as I could to let you know that I received your message at leat and sent you my detailed journals as I was able to fi ish them, and often haven't received your messages for days after you wrote them! Continuing ...

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  28. Continuing ...
    for days after you wrote them ....) I have tried to explain that we haven't any internet where we live. I can see now that this wasn't enough for you and have si cerely apologized without being able to comfort you it seems. Perhaps I am not even capable of being the friend you need tight now. This grieves me. Failing a friend is a serious tragedy for me and I would make it up to you if I could, if I knew how. I hope we might give it another chance when I get back but if you feel it's not worth it I'll accept that. Our lifestyle has long limited our ability to maintain close friendships and we both have learned to accept that sad fact and cherish the ones that survive the distances. I still truly hope this is one that will.

    Once more, I can only imagine how terrible that night of the scorpion sting must have been for you, how traumatic to have to make difficult decisions in the face of opposition from people who didn't know you and couldn't or didn't have time to understand. I wish I could have been there for you. I know (her son) tried and was very concerned about you. I'm terribly afraid of saying the wrong thing again but I have had similar experiences, especially when (her son) was young and we were alone in (") and ("). I almost died once from a severe fever and was terrified for (her son) to be alone, as you must be for (your husband). I do understand. I do care. I will always offer you my unconditional affection and frienship if you ever again have use for it. It is real, it is genuine but sadly not perfect. And I am many things (my name), but not a liar. Every single thing I have ever said to you is the truth. Also, I will never forget how you comforted and befriended me when I last returned to (town where I live), broken and depressed. Nor how you've helped (her son and girlfriend) with providions. I am fore er grateful for your caring and your time. Deeply grateful.
    The end of her email to me.

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    1. Hi Chelle, I'm back, we had ANOTHER apt inspection, not being singled out they did it to whole building but seems there's a lot of them lately. Feeling a bit restless wanted to take a day trip, but it's so hot I'm housebound now for next week or so, in 90s.
      I've heard of that hand problem where the tendons go bad, , can't remember, they have some technique to fix it. Did they diagnose him? I hope he can get it treated, you don't want to mess with hands too much, or wait, sad to hear it is expensive. We know what it's like not to be able to afford medical procedures or items. Husband waited some years for a vein surgery he needed. I can understand thinking on the risk though and the pay out, it depends too how much it affects one's daily life. Glad you asked him the millionaire question.

      Hey when coming here, I was on my Facebook, they brought up a picture where I had the millionaire friend and project friend meet. LOL It's from years ago. Both DID have the same kind of look in their eyes. She was visiting me and we went over to my project friends house. That's the friend who told me her family was embarrassed by my weight before the friendship imploded. I should go through and remove some of those old pictures, don't need bad memories in my face. I wasted valuable years and time where I could have been hanging out with real friends.
      Thanks I am glad you think I have a good grasp of the situation. She seems parasitic, can float from house to house, never having responsibility. An Aspie never could live that way, most would laugh us off and it'd be the bench in the park.continuing...

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    2. She was full of it. One term that really helped me learning in life was LOVE BOMBING> She seems a master of it. I learned to be wary of those too friendly and acting like we were best friends right off. The catfish would dish out the compliments from years ago and say "Oh we are like sisters" So this one to get her needs serviced probably love bombs the hell out of people. Easier than working for a living, and she's not disabled.

      They will do that hot and cold stuff too, where they ignore you and then pop up. I think that's a technique too, my narcissistic family would do things like ignore me for months or not return phone calls and then call and say "Why did you ignore us?" Just more games you know.

      Ugh with a scorpion that sounds scary. Glad I live in a place where that stuff freezes off though that has it's own cons.
      Yeah that is scary to be taken away from your transportation too. Well been in those situations, and if low on money they can be scarier.

      Sounds like you were with really sick people too, hope this was before Covid days....:o

      Glad you thought of your husband. I didn't know scorpions could kill, that's sad to hear about the little girl.
      Yeah I counseled people and then they would go poof. Some people do get busy and have life traumas happening but some simply vanish, and then I never hear from them again, it hurts. I got ghosted by one woman I wrote about here, I thought it out later, well my advice probably made things worse, and tried to apologize but that didn't work. I didn't tell her what to do, and it was her life, but still troubles me.
      I understand people get distracted, even here, I wanted to answer back, a few times, but sometimes CFS, I will be online and brain is not in place to type. Some of this fatigue stuff gets insane, and having to clean constant apt inspections threw me off. Lately I am wondering how a disabled person with no responsibilities or local friends always seems low on time...but that's me. Of course a lot of my time is spent half out of it in bed or doing medical junk, but today did exercise for 15 minutes on tv and ate a hardboiled egg sandwich. Those people who up and disappear though it's hard. I wish people too told me why and how they got offended. Would be better to know and try and work things out but that seems rare doesn't it? I am learning not to talk about politics as much with people. Feel like I erred so much in that, it's a subject better avoided for life.

      Thanks for your kind words about my thoughtfulness.

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    3. I am curious how do they treat scorpion bites, is their an antidote? Like antivenom when snakes bite you? Hope it healed up fast.

      I always like suggestions for websites and more. I am helping husband with zines lately and working on a book related to this blog, fiction [married to the comic zines] I usually have some project or other.

      I don't get the Bruces and Becky's of the world either. He surprised me having all those health problems and being so eager for a vaxx.

      He said he read this blog, why wouldn't you understand that someone with my kind of life isn't the trusting sort. Have you heard the latest with Fauci, how can we trust the vaxx?

      I never liked those hidden camera shows, always afraid of one catching me in an Aspie melt down or panic attack. Remember the show where they asked people what would you do and set things up?

      You know a fake line is kind of humiliating. I would recognize it was fake unless I was really really distracted.....LOL yeah you would never find me in that line and I am glad you wouldn't line up.

      I don't follow the crowd. Has gotten me in trouble in this life enough but it's helped me a few times.

      Yeah we have to be careful about the vaccine stuff. We are in a growing totalitarian time. I've read too many books about those living under tyranny. It's not the government coming to get you but the neighbors ratting you out. If they want to herd the unvaccinated into Fema camps, buying that little bit of time can only help.

      One weird thing about Covid, don't even know anyone who has it, except one vaccinated person who was in hospital; a few weeks ago. Oh a new person I know got very sick from vaccine, lost her motor control :o but got it back and is okay now....Surely some of the news is getting out to people that the vaxx aren't safe.

      Hope your husband's dental care went well. Yeah don't get into discussions, it's not worth it. Act like you are going to get it soon or brush it off,"Im trying to decide which one..."
      If your husband has had ministrokes, yeah he has to be cautious as we discussed earlier. You know I think about the ableism more and more about the refusal or discussion of any medical exemptions, it is so messed up. I wish there was some kind of safe vaccine, I do not want one that manufactures spike proteins in the body which are deemed to be toxic by some doctors warning out there.

      Sorry to hear your farm project did not work out. I do think changing to older kids, would be better. Younger ones you have to keep after a lot more and they don't have the right degree of attention span. It sounds like the couples split came at the worse time for you and yeah that messed up the transportation. 10-13 would be a better age range. It's too much to be doing the driving and then have to have everything set up and run the classes. Do you think you could ask for some parent volunteers next time? Yeah you have to think of safety issues and more with the younger ones, they will wonder off. Even when I was a sub teacher I tried to stick to 10 years old and older, because the really young 5 year olds, kindergarden/first grade required energy I didn't have by then. Yeah they will get into things. I remember all the time in art rooms having to run it like drill sargeant, not to have sink flooded with paint or Greek nudes cut out of a sculpture book, juvenile home told me to remove all books that had even classic Greek statues in it, nothing pornographic but that's how weird things got and this was teenagers.

      I wasn't always the best with classroom management, especially in earlier days after abuses at the hands of my parents. You have to probably give them a list of rules and some consequences if they break the rules. I would do that, establish some at the get-go. Sorry to hear the pandemic came. So much is messed up. I hope you can retry your project and that it goes well.
      continuing.

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    4. I need to check out that Dr. R website.

      Also Sam V does have good information, I don't trust him because he's a narc but that's a place to take the good and leave the bad.

      Your email from this woman directly reminds me of ones I got from my mother. The excuse making nonsense. There was this one time, I had not seen nieces and nephews in 2 years and just wanted them to stop by my apt. She was driving within half a mile of my apt. Even when I saw them before it was only 10 minutes with their mother driving home from her house. I got blown off, and got the email, "We had to take Joe Blow to the air port, [niece] needed to be back to babysit on time, time got away from us, we were so busy, with endless excuses. I saved these emails to reread during my early days of no contact to avoid false guilt.

      So what you got from her is the same, the endless excuses, she was around only when she wanted to be around. Realize much of what they say are basically lies. I learned a lot when I figured out if their mouths are open they are probably lying.

      I had to learn not to beg. I'm being ghosted by someone now again, and want to ask "What's wrong?" but I've been done that road time and time again. It can hurt too because you care about someone and there they just disappear. Some people I know do have life problems, severe illness, other tragedies and impacts on time, but with people like this with the excuse emails, it means things are already going down the chute. As I wrote before on this blog, "They left me before I left". She had no reason to treat you this way. She could have made clear, I won't be able to get emails through, and at least given you some empathy for your scorpion bite.

      I learned to set aside that benefit of the doubt thing...Sam V is right about that. It just opens the door for constant abuse, allowing them to hypnotize us like go to sleep while they make excuses.
      This woman is obviously someone who shows up to get her needs met but not someone who will ever be there when you have a need. She shows all the markers.

      I think she lied about ever having a bus ticket, that's one thing to go through their stories and listen to what doesn't make sense. Also how insane is a person who is almost pennieless to give up her last 20 on coffee? LOL
      Sounds like she almost had a kidnapping situation with son, does the son talk to her anymore or is he NC or not? WHo got the TMI her, or the son?
      It's not fair to a kid to make them live that way. I'm even disgusted with the old IFB pastor who decided he didn't want a job and drags his own kids around the country in a RV camper, I read his blog like watching a train wreck.
      continuing...

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    5. The locals probably thought they were nuts, sounds like she had enough money for at least base survival among them. Why go some place like that? She could be hiding out from people, like creditors, or something.
      I would take some of her stories with a grain of salt, it is possible the locals barely tolerated them too, and ignored them and she wanted to make it sound like she was in paradise.
      When they go into how private of a person they are, that's a red flag, it's just another way of telling someone "I don't want to tell you anything" aka tons of secrets and lies. Yes there are things people who hold to themselves because of boundaries but here she shows herself to be a bit much into the privacy thing to make more excuses.
      If her husband's family has so many medical and mental problems while are they gallavanting around living in the middle of no where?
      So weird to unload all of that, like you are supposed to help, but where is she? Sounds like martyr stuff. Her life sounds overly complicated, kind of confuses me, if she is married to the husband she should be able to get a European passport. [I looked into leaving the country know some of the rules]

      The bank account thing is weird too. She almost writes like one of those notorious catfishers, with complicated unobtainable bank accounts and other problems.
      If she hitchikes everywhere can't she just leave? The weird email would bug me too. Funny to me how she is so much into the "rules" of it all. Damn walk through the woods or hire a boat and shut up about it. LOL

      The mayrty ship and bragthon, could she list a few more countries, is a bit much...

      Here I would follow the believe someone when they tell you what they are.

      "Perhaps I am not even capable of being the friend you need tight now."

      This one made me laugh:

      "I will always offer you my unconditional affection and frienship if you ever again have use for it."

      If you ever have a use for it....


      When people say things like this, RUN:

      " Every single thing I have ever said to you is the truth."

      Her email is VERY TOXIC to me; I'd let that one go. Her life is so full of drama how does this woman even have time to go to the bathroom? She's swooning over having to do an email. LOL

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  29. Peeps,
    Glad to get through all that! Hope you are having a good day today. BTW love your bluebird painting. I always like the nature paintings you do, which I am personally partial to, bot also that delicious slice of cake you did some years back, which I am also partial to!
    Chelle



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  30. Hey Chelle thanks for the compliments on the paintings. I am low on time now, but will be back in next couple days to respond. :)

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  31. Hi Peeps,
    Am so bummed, just spent an hour or so commenting here and then had to get my signal back and lost it all. Not your fault here, was my network having switched me to E or emergency mode. Will get back as soon as I get a second wind or find a way to retrieve it. So appreciate all you said here, and was just finishing up. So disappointing.

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  32. Hello Peeps,
    Wow, am going to try it again Don't like to be foiled like that. Please forgive any typos, as I will be breezing through this. Fortunately wrote some of it down, so will start over. My mistake was not minimizing and then going to a seperate screen.
    Yea, I,ve heard about those inspections. It had to have been a lot of work to get things cleaned up in order so as not to get a "bad mark" so yo speak. Glad you got through it.
    Thanks for your concerns about our medical stuff. We don't have any medical insurance (husband qualifies for medicare, but can't use it outside the States) but we do have other options available to us here. At the government run clinics and hospitals, of which there are two, one can get an appointment with a doctor for .50 cents. One of these is the Social Security, where most of the doctors are either doing residency or earning long time credits for retiring. Many of the latter, have private practices, which they attend to in the afternoons and evenings, where you would pay $50-$80. There are some lesser clinics where you pay $10 to see a general med and $25 to see a specialist. The problem with the government run clinics, which we refer to as "cattle drives" is that everyone must get there at 7:00 a.m. to line up for an appointment to see doctor beginning at 9:00 a.m., first come, first serve. If a specialist is needed or certain special equipment, you might need to repeat this process somewhere else, at a more centralized location, like in the city. You might yhen get an appointment for 30 days later. If you neef an injection then, yes you guessed it, you have to line up again at yhe farmacy, and if it's injectable, again at yhe nursing station, all first come, first serve. This can take most of the day under certain circumstsnces, and certainly more where travelling is involved.
    After my husband's stroke, he was experiencing efacia, so naturally we wanted to know what was going on sooner than later, so we went the private route. MRI was just under $1,000 and the two specialists were $80 ea. Blood work was 320! But we saw the best of the best, and at leat had the comfort of understanding what was going on.
    I feel really bad for you and all the medical problems you face. I wish someone could come up with an answer for you. Not fair at all- I know you have been doing your own research as well. Have you ever looked into Eastern medecine? I haven't so I can't help with it, but am given to understand their philosohy is completely different, in that they gravitate towards herbal and and "total wellness" approaches. You might be lauphing at me right about now, thinking you'd be dead inside a week without you prevription meds! I guess what I'm driving at is that I just wish someone could get to the core issue, and then the way forward for you would become so much clearer.
    Glad you were able to exercize for 15 minutes yesterday,, I know I always feel so much better after breaking a sweat. Have started an exercize regime of my own recently, and diet, and hope to lose 10 pounds in 40 days. Will let you know how it comes out. I've always been a reasonably fit person, but after "family" came out of the woodwork, my head got bungled, and I sat in a chair for a couple years trying yo figure it out. I agree with you, if people could just be more honest and up front, it would save us so much time. I think that's what I'm mostly so angry with this woman about (besides the total disrespect) is that I'm 20 years younger than my husbsnd, and given his age and health concerns, there's no telling how much yime we have left. She stole a lot of that, screwing with my head and left to my own devices to try and figure things out, when she could gave just been kind and a friend and done the right thing. ...

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  33. Chelle continuing ...
    She could have just done the right thing, and spelled it out.
    I too lived "remotely" at one time, and had family and friends i wanted to stay in touch with, "despite the distances". I did this by putting Uz.S postage on my letters and looking for vacationing pilots in the region to carry my mail back yo the States and drop it in a mailbox. My family and friends, wrote into a P.O. box in the capitol of the countol where I lived, which was picked up by a purchasing agent once a week, put on a mailboat, and sent to the island where we did our grocery shopping once a week. It was a 30 minute boat ride, often done in 30 knott winds. All letters incoming and outgoing, were never under two pages, and everyone's everything was always answrred, and no one ever complained about the logistics or hasstle. And certainly no one letters were ever completely ignored. So I guess I wasn't the person who was going to take the hint about having to wzlk 50 yards up the beach to communicate as being a major inconvenience, or the occasional or more frecquent rainstorm. This is email, for god's sakes, how inconvenient could it be?
    And on the subject of not answering someone being okay somehow according to her, I recall that she sat right here one afternoon on my veranda, and said how rude the people at the hotel were across the way were, after she "took the time" to write out and send a resume for a position they needed filled, and "they didn't even have the decency to respond." She said that even had they decided to go with someone else the least they have fone was to have responded. Wow, interesting how different the shoe fits on yhe other foot! More later on this and the subjects you touched on. Thanks for the kindness Peeps. I for one would hate for you to error in judgement on yhe vacvine gront and be no longer. I have followed you for seben years, and would miss you immensely.
    Chelle

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  34. Chelle continuing ...
    She could have just done the right thing, and spelled it out.
    I too lived "remotely" at one time, and had family and friends i wanted to stay in touch with, "despite the distances". I did this by putting Uz.S postage on my letters and looking for vacationing pilots in the region to carry my mail back yo the States and drop it in a mailbox. My family and friends, wrote into a P.O. box in the capitol of the countol where I lived, which was picked up by a purchasing agent once a week, put on a mailboat, and sent to the island where we did our grocery shopping once a week. It was a 30 minute boat ride, often done in 30 knott winds. All letters incoming and outgoing, were never under two pages, and everyone's everything was always answrred, and no one ever complained about the logistics or hasstle. And certainly no one letters were ever completely ignored. So I guess I wasn't the person who was going to take the hint about having to wzlk 50 yards up the beach to communicate as being a major inconvenience, or the occasional or more frecquent rainstorm. This is email, for god's sakes, how inconvenient could it be?
    And on the subject of not answering someone being okay somehow according to her, I recall that she sat right here one afternoon on my veranda, and said how rude the people at the hotel were across the way were, after she "took the time" to write out and send a resume for a position they needed filled, and "they didn't even have the decency to respond." She said that even had they decided to go with someone else the least they have fone was to have responded. Wow, interesting how different the shoe fits on yhe other foot! More later on this and the subjects you touched on. Thanks for the kindness Peeps. I for one would hate for you to error in judgement on yhe vacvine gront and be no longer. I have followed you for seben years, and would miss you immensely.
    Chelle

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  35. Hi Peeps,
    Hope you're doing well today. Sorry about all the typos and rushed writing above, it had more flavor the first time around!
    I just read all you have written on your topic here for the second time this morning. I can relate to so much of it. But thought I might try and get to the end of how things ended up with this woman first. I'd like to start that by mentioning our current state of affairs. They came back to roost here this past December, and are directly across the bay from us, staying at a neighbor's house (rent free of course) who made it out of here on a humanitarian flight back to the States. If you were to place a tape measure of how to get them in the exact middle of the patio, you could not have done a better job. No chance for out of sight, out of mind here. Everytime we go out to sit in our rockers to take some of the view and a breather, there they are, smack dab in the middle of it. I wouldn't know this (ignorance could have been bliss) had she not felt the need to email me and tell me so.
    I had literally "baited" a responce from her previousely, about the scorpion sting email. I still had no idea what the problem was, but knew that there was one. I knew she definately did not want to address it, so decided to take it for a spin and see where it would go. Swallowing it in silence had not given me any answers at all.
    She had said she would KIll for a good book to read a while back, so I had ordered some. This was to be the second round, where I wrote,
    "I'm sharing this beginning of Ken Follet, Pillars of the Earth. I had asked you (her name in parenthesis) if it was someone you might enjoy reading in the scorpion email saga I wrote. Not sure you got it, as I never heard back. Anyway, we have decided he is someone we would enjoy reading, so plan to order this and the prequel I told you about. What was the name of the author (your husband) enjoys? Something O'Malley? Will order his latest too."
    This is what I got back:
    "Patrick O'Brien is (husband's) favorite. Think I've read Pillars of the Earth? History of the building of a great cathedral in England?
    I wrote back: "Yes, that is what it is about basically, and I sent you a link to read about the first 60 pages of it. Didn't know how old it was, was published back in the 80's. Still no comments from you again, on the scorpion saga or the pom video or picture of the monkey?
    Her answer: "Just sent another message about empathetic animals. The book is excellant, read it while crossing the Pacific to Tahiti years back. Couldn't get the link for the Pom video to work, sorry.
    I was really surprised at the treatment you received at the hospital. Sounded like how they might treat a child, but certainly not appropriate for an adult! Really glad you're OK in the end. Must have been an awful night for all of you."
    End of her email to me on the subject.

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  36. Hi again Peeps,
    Just quickly about your question of scorpion stings being lethal, or whether there is an anidote or antivenon?
    Supposedly the stings are only hugely serious for children mostly, and the elderly sometimes. There is an anivenon, which this doctor was having her nurse prepare without asking me first. This is another rub about the government run or what I would refer to as socialized medicine. The doctors are Godlike, and do not engage in consultation with their clients (pacient's) wishes. Because this woman's (my "friend's") son's girlfriend near death experience she eluded to in that email yo me I sent you, which was a snake bite from a venemous snake, but which did not deliver her any actual venom, it turned out that the anti venon is what caused her the most harm afterwards, in that she had to stay on heavy antihistimines to not scratch herself raw, and eventually had to ween herself off of them. I refused the ani venon for the scorpion sting for this reason, which no doubt was frowned upon by the doctor. I wasn't even really concerned about yhis scorpion sting, as I had been stung at least a half dozen times without huge incident, but went in an abundance of caution. It became more about yhe attending doctor covering her own ass after that, than it was anything about what would likely befall me. That's why my "friends" recharacterization of the night in question, in that email of hers was so disengenuine and perposterous, as there never were "difficult decisions to make in the face of people who didn't know me and couldn't or didn't have the time to understand". Who knows anyone in the ER where they go for emerncy treatment, and who is looking for anyone to "understand them". Her retelling of this story on so many levels, msking me out to be oathetic, leaves me yo totally conclude that her email was not for me, but fjor someone else. I'm guessing, the neighbor, whose house she's currently in

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  37. Hi Peeps,
    Honestly, I hope I'm not writing too much. Don't think I've written this much to any one person ever. Don't feel you need to respond, i am just trying to get to the end.
    I told you about the medical stuff here, because I know you've considered leaving the U.S. and just wanted to share what I could about life elsewhere.
    You mentioned a medical exeption for the vaccines, are they charging for them there? It's free here. I know the government here is paying just under $10 a dose. I think they paid around $18 in the States.
    That's sad you losing "friends" over differing opinions about the vaccines. I put that in quotes, because I don't believe a true friend would abandon another for this or having a different opinion on anything else. I was reading an interview with an ex president here, in the locsl paper this morning, and he was making the point that, "There may be differences of opinion. In political parties, when there's a political discussion there's a confrontation of ideas. This is healthy. I don't see it as anything to be criticized, on the contrary, the more points of view and counter points of view there may be, the more enriched the discussion is at the end of the day."
    Smart man. I agree. Well said. It seems to be wearing your feelings on your sleeve to be so offended that a person would have a different opinion than you. I mean, do you want a friend, or a clone? Where would we be if we only ever had the first thought that popped into our head and was never made to consider anything beyond it?
    I only lived in the U.S. a few years as an adult. I did vote, but I was registered as a republican at one time and then a democrat at another. This is because I voted my concious. I've never been a partisan type of a person, but I do understand that things are very different presrntly in the U.S. than they were back then, more than thirty years ago. Growing up in the 70's I think was a very interesting time in the country as well. I lived in a republican state, and I remember my first experience with politics, from a kid in school talking about Kennedy being the greatest president the country ever had and anyone who thought otherwise was stupid. I think we were in the third grade. This kid was very emotional about this. My republican grandparents were equally emotional, and would have heated debates if they supported a different candidate than the other because they were going to "cancel each others vote." I remember the school drills too, when the bell would ring three times and we had to leap under our desks and cover our heads in case the Russians were coming to bomb us. The end of the vietnam war brought interesting times too, people assembled and protested when they were against something being done by the government. They held them accountable, and reminded them of who was working for who. Music was especially great then too, lyrics were immense with meaning, and used as another platform to communicate ideals and life experiences. There was still a huge middle class then, jobs were plentiful, and there seemed to be a very upbeat attitude in general, at least where I lived. There was watergate of course, and the work done by the investigative reporters. I love the movie done in recent times about it, starting Tom Hanks and Merryl Streep. Have watched it a couple of times and would gladly watch it again. Chelle, continuing ...

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  38. Chelle continuing ...
    I remember my grandmother had a Japanese couple as neighbors. I noticed she didn't like me wanting to play with their little girl. And every time December 7th rolled around, she would say to him through the fence, "George, there's a show on tv tonight I think you should see." Didn't keep her from harvesting the delicious apricots hanging from his tree over the fence, and making a delicious jar or two of jam from them though! Another neighbor had plumbs. The strwberries for the same purpose, she gathered from a local patch. My grandmother and my time with her was my respite from my MNM.
    I think because of this climate I grew up in, civil rights have always been pretty high on my list. This clashes currently with what most apps want access to on my phone. I don't agree with most of it, and I don't think it's okay. I have shared this opinion with a couple of people and been regarded as though I must be doing something wrong then. With statements like, "Well, they'd be very bored watching what I do." I don't think that's the point of it at all, and frankly misses it all together. I don't use whattsapp yet, which everyone else I know does. I tried but could never get through another app I need to agree to and go through first. This one wants to place 10 geo fences on my phone. I don't even go ten places, but thought about those who do. I added them up, starting with where people typically go in a day and throughout the week. 10 places pretty much covers it all. I think that's too much information in the hands of who knows who? I just don't feel that I should have to agree to yhat so supposedly someone running a special on donuts at a shop next to where I get my hair done can tell me about it when I get in that area. Also I have enough respect for my signature to not sign off on things I don't agree with.
    I guess I'll get off my soapbox for today and leave it here. It was a discussion I wanted to have with you for a while, so nice chatting with you. I hope you are having a good day. Chelle

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  39. Hi Peeps,
    Yes, it's me again, please bear with me, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
    Just made breakfast, some mangoes from the yard, followed by a cucumber and tomato salad with feta cheese. This is my main staple for trying yo lose this small amout of weight to begin with. It makes a large salad with a cucumber thinly sliced, a lqrge diced tomato, a few cubes of feta, 1 tbls. sliced onion, EVOO, lemon juice and salt and pepper. It's 225 calories, and I'm content to munch on it throughout the day. Would like to lose a total of 40 lbs., but am starting out with ten.
    I understand your concerns over Sam V being a narcissist. If I were in his physical sphere and interacting with him on a personal basis, this would concern me as well. There would always be the fear that he would begin screwing with me at some point like the other narcissists. But I think in this setting at this safe distance he really does have a lot to offer on yhis subject. He's a teaching professor of psychology, and the teacher in him lends itself to easily understood, well thought out and articulate youtubes on the subject as well as his personal insight and perspective on actually being one. The latest one I listened to was, "Expose Narcissists Secret Speech." Here he explains how the narcissist will send a manifest text to you, but how there is always a coded, occult message, that only you and the narcissist can decipher. He says it's very subterrainian, and that the aim is not to communicate but to manipulate.
    Like you say here, with the endless excuses email from your mother being similar to the one I got from this woman. I don't
    know why they don't just come out and say, "We had some other things to do, so we decided not to stop by." They just don't want to admit that it was a concious decision I guess, suddenly "everything just happened and it became impossible." Do you think she thinks you'll buy this? I don't. She was the one driving the car, obviousely she was the one making the decisions. And who was the loser in what she chose? You were. And so you are just suppose to just understand that it just became so impossible to manage? Wrong. Chelle continuing ...

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  40. Chelle continuing ... Wrong. Like Vaknin said, her manifest text said that for anyone else reading, but the true message was clear between you, "You weren't a priority, we didn't care to stop." I know you already got that though, with so much of what you said here. Including if their mouths are moving, they are probably lying.
    It really is so sad to be so disrespected. But one has to wonder too, if it is done for purely malicious reasons or if they have a dog in the race? It may be she didn't want the nieces to know where you lived or have any mental frame of reference as to who you were as a person. It sounds like, given what you've said over the years, that you had her figured out as a person at a young age (enough to know there was something terribly wrong) but your brother and sister didn"t see her the same way. These narcissists are at constant risk of exposure, so she wouldn't want to foster a relationship between the rest of the family and you. Boy, been there. Sorry you were denied a relationship with your family because you were intelligent enough (and in tune enough) to see through your mother. She couldn't have you spilling the beans.
    And those conversations she wanted to shut down for the holidays. These are things and opinions which would have made you a magnet for like minded in the room. Or you could have been the very interesting aunt with a completely different philosphy than anyone else in the family. That would have made you interesting and an asset.
    Instead, the only thing she left out for anyone to see was your extreme weight. And according to what you have said over the years, which she showed no sympathy for or any acknowledgement that it wasn't your fault. One can only imagine what she may have said in your absence. I'm so sorry it was like this Peeps, you totally deserved better.
    So, I'm going to respectfully disagree with the friend book on making light and easy banter conversations. Of course there are times for those with passers by and your own intelligence would be your guide on that, but I would say yhat you would be witholding your gifts to not be who you are as a person, and by not doing so, would probably not attract the right friends for you anyway. So screw 'em! If they can't take you as you are, better they go sooner than later.
    Now on to my tired rag with this woman but along the same vein. This occult speech can be done by omission to. Eventually I got some of her behavior with me nailed down to being passive aggressive. We hadn't any way to play any music here for about five years (besides tv music channels) which she was aware. We decided to get a really nice bluetooth speaker this past year, which I consulted with her about (never heard back) and we were getting reacquainted with all the music we had missed. Even some we'd never listened to, like Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard. Sent her a link to the video they did about Pancho Villa. I sent one of Pink one day, singing me and Bobby Magee. So I was on a bit of a country jag. Never heard anything back. Until I sent a performace done by Bonnie Rait, done for a large audiece including President Obama and Oprah. I got an email back saying, "Boy, we're really in tune musically my friend. We've loved us some Bonnie Rait and Tracy Chapman many times over the years on the High Seas." So what am I left to conclude about the first 4 or five I sent? Well, the exact opposite of course. That they were lame and not to their liking. I got to know this kind of speach through my mother over the years. So now I'm going to send my facetious email answer to the one she sent me, which I shared with you here. I couldn't believe that she threw the kitchen sink at me, and probably figured she had mopped the floor up with me on. Chelle sending ...

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  41. Hi Chelle

    Hey I am glad there is antivenom for the scorpion bites. Those things would freak me out. I have to stay in a place where everything freezes off. LOL
    Wow I support more socialized medicine, husband has been without medical insurance for YEARS and we used stimulus money for a specialist, but to find out it makes the doctors more arrogant with people having less choices there, that sucks. You know if capitalism worked and people could make real livings, it would be different, it's so broken now, I think boomers and above are the only ones who are going to have decent lives, everyone else is so poor. That sucks there can be side effects from antivenom, didn't even realize that. I could see why you would choose against it with that many problems.
    I think a lot of stuff is CYA stuff. They fear being sued or complaints and well it brings in the conformity, lack of diagnosis and risk taking. I really have a poor view of medicine, sure on one level they kept me alive from some things, but it's so primitive and most disease they can't cure, only "manage".
    There is a lot of bad doctors out there too, one has to be careful.
    continuing...

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  42. Maybe your friend recycled an email, sent you same one as someone else. Forgot to change parts.

    Oh youre not writing too much, I do wish this blog got more comments but sometimes takes me time to write back. All that CFS stuff. Brain always wants to do more than body wants to.

    Some people have told me it's worse elsewhere, considering the more authoritarian attitudes towards vaxx, etc, probably will stay in USA. This town had a lot of activities and more before Covid and resources for a small place, so kept me here, but it gets lonely. It's hard for a broke Aspie to become close friends with far more affluent people. I did better in a more working class place in the rural town. Not sure what to do, if I go more rural, then thinks like nice library that actually has new books, art center, medical resources all vanish but don't want to live my life with no friends in it. LOL wonder if I have an edge of desperation to me. I've turned down some group invites lately, nervous about Covid, so that's a pain. One weird thing is the vaxx doesn't seem to be making people here comfortable. Well it is crappy and really doesn't work, like old vaccines, and even groups with mostly vaxxed people are meeting mostly outside and nervous about being indoors with each other.

    Here the vaxx is free, but I can see them charging anywhere from 100 bucks to 1000 for the boosters. They got their captive audience.

    Noticing scary things about the vaxxed by the way, their health seems to be deriorating fast, like people having seizures even a month or two in, who were formerly young people who were active and healthy no problems [this had me crying over someone I really like the other day] and other health problems. They seem more ill to me. I notice illness, I mean I am a mess and prone to notice the subtle signs. I'm scared for everyone.
    continuing...

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  43. I have only told 4 people how I feel about the vaccines, and there's three online friends who agree with my views. I could lose everyone.

    I know more friends will unfriend me, when they see the blog. :( One only checks rarely. One already has ghosted me, online and IRL friend, just dumped me. It is scary out there. I never thought in life, I would be told to go sign up for medical trauma and disaster to be accepted. I do feel like I live in hell lately. I don't feel comfortable around right wingers
    who have beliefs I disagree with. More moderate ones, probably would be no issue, but everything is extreme now.

    And I lost enough friends from the religion deconversion and no contact stuff. I think maybe I should give up on being socially accepted anywhere.

    I don't believe a true friend would abandon another. What gets me is they are such cowards, they don't talk anything out. I mean have the guts to even say you disagree, or something instead of cold freeze outs. That includes the Christian friends. One never even stuck around to hear my real opinions about religion, she had left the churches too in her case. Also for the one who is ghosting me, she knew of my immense medical trauma and how much medical research I did to get things diagnosed. Just didn't care. Full freeze out. So crazy. It is weird how people only want friends who fully match them. I can understand a deconverted person leaving behind people in their religious cult etc etc, but it's grown really bad. Sometimes having one mismatched opinion has been enough to be kicked to the curb.
    Yeah that ex president is right, there's no more discussion of ideas or the pros or cons. Look at America now ignoring the long term range outcome of having millions take an experimental vaccine, why isn't it just restricted to high risk individuals who could make a free choice and given to the young who had little to no risk from Covid? It is insanity and you are seeing this one endless issues where all discourse is shut down. People are losing nuance. Hey I supported Medicare4all, but understand the backdraws of socialized medicine, one you mentioned today and I worried about accessibility etc being cut.

    People get offended very very easy today. ONe thing too I like to debate stuff, not fight, there's a difference and no one wants to do that. I don't know if this is a cultural thing around Minnesota Nice land...I don't live in Minnesota but that's the nature of people around here, in my old rural town, I would have fun debating libertarians down at the coffeeshop and book store co-op. Here people can't talk about anything. They'll give you a dirty look. LOL If not for the UU here, my brain would have wilted on the vine, but now I am scared what would they think if they found out what I think of the vaxx.
    continuing...

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  44. I wonder if people want clones. Divide and conquer they pulled that off. I regret unfriending a few over Trump so not saying I am perfect here [one guy was in Proud Boys, and I got outraged] but A LOT of Trumpsters dumped me who I would have kept as friends.

    People don't consider stuff anymore. I miss being able to talk to people. I like talking to people like you online, and other people but how come I can't have conversations like this in the real world, why in the hell is it so unsafe now? I wonder too if my dream of having friends in real life, not just online is even possible anymore. It seems I can stay casual with people and be okay but once I show my "real self" I am dumped. Someone my age should have friendships locally in person where they feel secure in and loved for themselves. Guess I am finding another layer the narc family ruined.
    I am glad you voted your conscience. I take every issue one by one. I stopped voting Dem for a long time, voted all third party but went back, and now have no interest in voting Dem because they are directly harming and threatening me, right now only Republicans are standing up for any freedom when it comes to the vaxx and other insanities. I still disagree with them on other things, but yeah whatever happened to that. I am tired of the ideology tests in general.
    The USA has gone crazy.

    That's best way I can state it. A lot of it is economics, people did get poorer, there's far more strain on everyone. The 70s and 80s were far happier, I was still dealing with abuse of course but there was sanity in the school and community and with a few relatives who later died. All the narcs and sociopaths got a lot more power. The uSA is not like the 70s at all. Remember that video I talked about where my cousins sent me it, it had pictures of 1970s stuff, we were out at this park, I noticed in pictures people were far far far far happier. I even had a moment crying about the 1980s and I was poor of course by the 1990s, but things were far better back then. Even in the 1990s there were zines and art and romantic dress all the bows, and what do we have now? One could talk to people. Even the friends changed like I wrote about in this article, they joined with "the system". They let go of everything good about life. People used to rebel have some joy in life, they've let these elites beat all happiness out of them. Screw that. The America of the 1970s while not perfect was very different. People supported the young then too, they wanted them to have good futures.

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  45. hey will write more later to your other messages Chelle, have to get going now....

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  46. Hello Peep,
    Thanks for writing a wonderful post about friendship. I was also raised by narcissists and it definitely has affected my friendships with others, in particular other women. I don't know why, but my friendships from college that have sustained over the years have only been with men. My college female friends who have reached out, then have subsequently ghosted me. I've continued to have this issue and just don't want to be bothered. I think I will just leave it at going to UU and develop acquaintances (activity friends) and that is it. I'm tired of being emotionally invested and people just freezing me out. I don't really know what to do. I don't think I am on the spectrum at all (although my younger brother is). I do have sensory processing disorder and am an introvert which I feel has its own issues while being a woman.
    As for the vaccine, I took the vaccine and the first time I got a severe allergic reaction. I went to an allergist hoping I could get a medical exemption, but he just prepped me and I took the second dose. That was over two weeks ago now. The vaccine has left me feeling lethargic and fatigue along with chronic swollen lymph nodes, to boot. But I've had that for the past several years and I do suffer from an autoimmune disease that also presents itself in that way, so perhaps it's not even the vaccine. Who knows?
    Anyway, thanks for sharing your experiences. It has really helped me put things in perspective and helped me not to feel as alone.

    ~ Anon

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    1. Hi Anon,

      Thanks for your kind words about my post. Yes Sorry you have faced effects on friendship too from being raised by narcissists. I sometimes am surprised by new layers but this obviously is a new one I am confronting. It helps me to hear from others who relate. I am sorry to hear of course you have gone through the same thing. I made a joke to my husband that maybe in real world I should just focus on local male friends but that can bring some baggage especially in conservative areas, and if one is happily married. I am glad your college male friends stuck with you too. I was still scared of men because of my abuse from the male members of my family when in college, so glad you got those friends.
      I understand the emotions after the constant rejection or ghosting. I can't take it anymore myself. I did make that decision years ago IRL just to focus on activities and groups, it does help. It did bring me some happy memories, yes I had good times with the UU activity "friends" too. Sometimes some have become closer friends, but I know in me, I got tired of trying only to lose out, with people moving away, the extreme harm from that project friend of 5 years ago, the ghostings, the rejection and shut doors in my face. You may even have gotten tired of that constant pressure to "sell yourself" to make friends. I get kind of worn out, society is different now where the competition and more is hard, easier to get left behind. I wrote above in comment that at this age, I should have secure friendships locally too and in person where I can be myself and not always be scared and wary. It's something everyone should have safe friendship in their day to day life too. Yes to have emotional investment thwarted over and over takes a toll. You find out someone doesn't even feel connected or anything. It's strange to me hard to understand. Maybe sensory processing disorders is enough to affect things or ADHD, I get the feeling people expect perfection of everything too. I had no bad habits like drinking or causing trouble, gossipping etc but makes me wonder, I sometimes feel like people just got bored and put the "toy" away. That's a dark thing to think about friendship isn't it. I was talking to some aspie friends [have my circle dating back to 1999] and some told me they gave up on the friendship thing it became so painful.

      I hope you feel better soon, sorry to hear about everything you have gone through. I do think people with autoimmune disorders are getting more side effects but I hope whatever is happening ends soon and you feel better soon.

      I am glad my article helped. I do wonder how many out there are having these severe friendship issues. I know some people try everything and are good people and the friendship thing doesn't work out. Everyone should have friends they feel safe and secure around. I sometimes think some people don't view friendship in the same fashion at all.

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    2. correction above, some in UU did become closer friends among themeselves. I am arriving at the conclusion I am me, I can only change so much, and too worn out to "try" anymore and fail and bang my head against that proverbial wall. Aspies do suffer from rejection. I find myself counseling younger Aspies I know online, to find friends on the spectrum for more social success.

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    3. Thanks for the reply, Peep. I have a bunch of things I have to do in the next two days. I should be able to respond to your comment more fully over the weekend. Take care,
      -- Anon

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    4. Hello Peep,
      I agree with all of what you said. I've been told by others that some people get tired of friendships and feel they aren't getting anything out of it. If you ask me, I feel like a lot of times I was over-functioning in the friendship.I was a "friend of convenience" to the other person.

      Also, I was listening to this audiobook by Elaine Aron called the Undervalued Self. She talks about ranking and linking which affects relationships. I really like it because she is forthright. Many people say things with double meanings. At least, this has been my experience. They say let's get together but they really don't mean it. People have even told me they don't and it is just the polite thing to say, but how does one know if a person is sincere?

      As I mentioned to you before I have a chronic health condition, when I am honest with people they think I am making excuses because that is how others use this form of social grace which I don't think it is, but that is how society deems it.

      I also agree with how things are becoming more and more competitive. If I was a Generation Z I would be screwed in the dating market. I think I really ended up lucking out and being able to marry my husband. As for male friends, I never had any sisters and even with my marriage I now have four brothers in total. So there is that. My contentious relationship with my mother along with classism and racism growing up in my childhood town I believe has affected friendships with other women.

      I see the "selling yourself" as a friend is true too. It is exhausting for me. I can be personable, many people have told me this on separate occasions but it's too much for me. The sensory thing affects me a lot. I don't like to be touched which is weird as a woman. When I was a child I would cry because of fireworks -- my younger brother would too (he is the one on the spectrum).

      Anyway, I do feel more consolation as one could be a good person and not have friends. It seems unreal, but I believe this to be true, especially today it is like everything has to be a luck of the draw or something. People are constantly on their phones no one really engages anymore. It is tragic.

      I remember back when people would get "stood up" on a date. It was a big deal. Or people would just say they would come and everyone would wait. It was terrible. That person wouldn't show up. Of course this was before cell phone, but still. There were pay phones and pagers. People in the circle would be mad. There would be positive peer pressure not to do those things. Personally, I feel like the fabric of society has been slowly unraveling for the past at least three decades probably more.

      Thanks again for your reply and sharing your experiences. Have a good week!

      --Anon

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    5. Hi Anon,

      Yeah maybe some get tired of friendships and feel they aren't getting anything out of it. I realize too a lot of people there's only so far it will go. Like if you have this friend who hides everything from you and won't talk about anything too deep, then that may work as an activity friend or casual but it's not going to be a close friendship. I know what you mean by "friend of convenience", I read somewhere accessibility and availability floats friendship, aka you have to be meeting somewhere, I guess it's like some friendships survive moves and other don't. I recently had a friendship fade out from a move I made 15 years ago, but we have lived so far away so long, the commonalities faded, it wasn't a matter of anyone getting angry at each other so that can happen too. Even most people we knew mutually are deceased except one or two.

      I should read that book, ranking and linking have to figure out what that is. You will see on this blog I used to write why am I only #56 to so many, kind of my metaphor I guess for being low down the list. I also have learned not to invest time in social butterflies with huge extensive close families, and a therapist once told me, not to befriend women with children when I was in my 30s, "they won't have time for you". Does she talk about social class and other things that impact friendship? Yeah someone being forthright and honest about it all, would help. I realized status is very important to a lot of NTs, and I knew status was losing me some relationships, the disabilities that show, the poverty one thing I've noticed in this life, is I could tell if I was gaining or losing by how I was treated and also that when I had more money people treated me better [aka my working class times as opposed to severe poverty times]

      The double-meaning stuff always gets to Aspies, trust me on that, yeah the fake "let's get together", is annoying. it's hard to figure out who really does want to get together as opposed to those just being polite.

      That's too bad you have a chronic health condition people don't understand or judge you over. That happens to me, the CFS stuff, really was affecting life kind of badly. I always felt I was "letting people down".

      Yes everything is about competition, even friendship it seems. Once one of the toxic friends talked about in this article said something really nasty to me, "maybe you don't have much to bring to the table, you are ill, broke, fat and that's what people see first, she had that mercenary view of relationships so many have. She continued "There has to be something in it for people to take interest".

      Yeah dating is far worse. I don't think I'd even be married if I was younger too and was lucky to find my husband. We both don't "fit in". Having 4 brothers definitely would affect things for you and facing classism and poverty. I wonder if those of us with these really toxic mothers will always have female friendship affected for life. I wish I didn't meet so many that treated me like my mother. The millionaire ex friend reminded me so much of my mother as I got into ACON recovery it was scary. I am realizing I had some lingering project people too, I noticed in their lives, they befriended other "down and out" women, maybe true friendship is impossible unless both are equals. If a project friend hits economic shoals themselves or has other problems, they won't share, they will just ghost because their status has lowered? Is this a cynical way to express this? So why you are there wanting to offer support as what a "good friend does", they shut the door in your face.

      continuing...

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    6. While I have real friends of all socioeconomic varieties, I always wonder why I never meet anyone in my same economic status. Well probably most ended up homeless or otherwise indisposed, while I clinged on to the edges of what used to be called genteel poverty. I get the feeling many people as poor as me did not survive and some literally "died off".
      Thanks for seeing the "selling yourself" and telling me it's exhausting too. I think I am too tired. I also have looked at the results and thought lately while I had some good friendships and community, the me of today is getting very tired after losing so many of them, [some to death or communities to other destructive forces] I think I am a personality that needed some stability in life.
      I have been told I can be personable in my past but this diminished with the hearing loss. I know I don't smile enough anymore and people have complained about me talking monotone. Oddly I realized how I appeared to people doing lectures for the UU since some of these were videotaped, I saw how autistic I appeared to others. When I used to "cloak" it required so much energy and with the big body in the way, this kind of faltered. I did appear "friendly" and "enthusiastic" in my youth. It sounds like too much for you too. I know it exhausted me. Teaching took too much out of me for this reason. The sensory stuff can be hard for a lot of people. The sensory aspect of the group around you, trying to keep up with conversation got difficult for me. I hate being touched too, they probably felt the flinch when they put a hand on my shoulder.
      I think one can be a good person and not have friends too, and think it's happening far more than it used to. Everything is a luck of the draw, and with people moving and other factors, people don't have the same connections anymore.
      With the phones it's harder to find people to talk to even normal discourse. I miss how people used to talk even from decades ago.

      Sure ghosting or blowing off a date or being late, was considered rude, it is far more common now. People got angry. if you were rude and ghosted people, it would be seen as cruel and cold. I think the busy-ness too also affected things. I get busy, and behind, but this is when people are so busy, they pick and choose and give up all social nicieties or even pretending. one thing I have noticed too is in competitive culture is when people get sick or have problems, they don't tell their friends [the whole pressure to be positive] they just disappear and the friendship is destroyed. There is shallowness to any relationship that is so fair weather you must hide every problem.
      I agree with you that society is unraveling too. look how much power the media and powers that be have gained, some of this is because daily in real life relationships have been so diminished. Even now I have no one to talk to IRL about what is going on, except my husband. [thus it appears on my blog.]

      Thanks anon

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  47. Hi Peeps,
    On the vaccine front, don't know if you heard, Santiago en Chile will be going into lockdown on saturdat for the third time since the pandemic began. This because of the 17,716 new cases and 198 deaths in 24 hours. They're hospital beds are at 96% capacity. 15.2 million people out of a population of 19 million have been vaccinated, of those 8.6 million have received both doses. They will begin vaccinating 12 year old's and twenty something's next.
    Here, a very bigwig is reported to have tested positive, and given his position I would find it difficult to imagine he hasn't received both vaccines. There were no details on whether he had been vaccinated or to what to extent. That might be a bad idea depending, since they are encouraging people to line up and get vaccinated. We are at 25% of yhe population vaccinated, not sure how many twice, but a much lesser amount. But people in certain areas have been given the absolute priority of a second dose, which this man would seem to definately fit in. Will have to see what happens. Glad your finding things to do and working on the zines. Chelle

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  48. Sorry about mixing up they,re and their!

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  49. Hi Peeps,
    Just had another doctor appt. for hubby this past Tuesday into the city. This is the private hospital for the wealthy, where they basically reach in and empty the contents of your wallet. He got two biopsies done on a couple lesions on his face we had left growing too long for covid concerns. We went for one, she did two= $530! We had $15. left over. Got two coffees, split an oatmeal and raisin cookie, paid the parking, and that was that! The wallet was still smoldering as we left the parking lot.
    Just wanted to share the latest on the vaccines here x us. They came through our area with the Pfizer last week. They were here for four days, and from what I hear, most everyone turned out. I called the ex "friend's" son on the morning of the last day's vaccination (I only heard two days in) to let him and his girlfriend know, in case they had not heard. We had always been in touch on important things throughout the pandemic, saw no reason there should be an exception now. I was glad we had a very nice conversation as always, and that things between his mother and I had not seemed to change that. He is my actual neighbor, not her, so I was glad that relationship remained intact.
    He is a nature guide in the area, and prone to looking at a natural approach to most things (as I am too). His girlfriend had already had the vaccine the day before, and he was still on the fence. There is a difference in culture here too, where the locals have always lined up for "free" vaccines in socialized medicine, and perhaps north americans and other cultures might look into things further. He had also decided against the Astra Zeneca and was completely freaked out by the Johnson and Johnson methodology. He was only considering doing the Pfizer now for fear it might not be available later. I was able allay his fears on that, as a schedule had already been published on the amounts. Only very small amounts of the other three were going to be given. I also told him we would not be going this time around. I still had not arrived at the place where I felt okay about it. Still more to study and look into.
    I also told him of a an entire family up the street from us, who all came down with covid, and were there on the first day of vaccines, and took theirs. We both agreed that natural immunity was the best one could hope for currently, and neither he nor I would have messed with that. He also said he felt in good health in general and capable of taking preventative measures, whereas he felt completely vulnerable and at a complete loss of control over taking an "experimental" vaccine of which little was known. I agreed.
    I was shopping in one of our tiny grocery stores locally, three days after the vaccines passed through, and asked a merchant there if she had taken the vaccine and if followup s had been programmed? Suddenly I was being peppered with the questions about me being vaccinted, and I dodged them a couple of times, and then just answered "no". Then the other merchant overheard and came over to question me as to why not, and the other woman, packing my grocery bag amswered for me, shaking her head and calling me "stupid". This is a VERY small town, and this is where I shop locally. I was offended, and told her I was not stupid, but getting educated. I said my husband had special health concerns and that I wasn't one to flying off the handle in general. The other chinese girl said she flew.
    So I understand your concerns about not voicing your opinion publicly amongst your nrighbors, in case they feel differently. It can turn into an ugly mob pretty quickly.
    Watched a couple good youtubes on the vaccines this morning, in case you haven't seen them, one was an interview of young professor Shane Crotty phd working on the vaccines in La Joya, San Diego, continuing ...

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  50. Continuing ...
    Wrote too much again, will try and remember. This youtube with professor Crotty was easy to understsnd on how the messenger vaccines work with good analogies. Another youtube by Dr. Robert Scooley was very good, with charts and presrnted in a completely different way.
    On a different note, what is the UU you refer to so often as a place to socialize? Hope you xnd Mr. Peeps are having a great day! Chelle

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    1. Hi Chelle, hope the doctor appt for your husband went well.
      Yeah that's a lot of money, is that for the full testing, I hope so. Yeah down to your last 15 bucks. I know husband has to see specialist one more time, will be at least 200 bucks.
      Hmm so Pfzier is going to other countries, guess it doesn't surprise me. I am glad you are thinking things out. Glad you had a good conversation too with the ex-friend's son. I'm friends on FB with one ex friend from my old town--we never fought, she was just uber-religious and it was a moving on thing. I am glad he is investigating things too. Hmm I would think locals would be more suspicious but maybe the old good vaccines won them over by working.
      Glad you were able to tell him there was more time on the schedule.
      Yeah keep investigating things the best you can. I know all these are hard decisions.

      I don't get why they are giving the vaccine to people who already had Covid, they would already be immune. So much is confusing about this stuff. It's one reason my trust is gone.

      Link from NIH here:
      https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

      I think if you have had it, why mess with natural immunity too? They should be giving antibiody tests, not the swab in your brain stuff where they stick it way up there. Think about it, they say some people are immune and asymptomatic, and why have them even have the risk of the Covid vaccines. This is one empty hole in the logic that makes me not trust it. I wonder sometimes if I am immune but who knows I could wrong.

      I'm keeping things on the down low, IRL for a reason. I told three people swore them to secrecy and warned a few online, friends but outside of that, I think silence is better part of valor. If they start doing round ups for the Fema Camps I don't want noticed especially if I have to hightail it out of town LOL Sad I have to have such worries but they are there.

      continuing...

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    2. I know it's getting too late now to say Oh I am thinking about it, I have to choose one. I have spiritual issues about the vaxx too, few would not understand. Just see it as more attempts to turn humans into machines. I made an announcement today to husband that was kind of a passionate one, lets give up all these computers and technology. I probably won't but just had that thought. I can't talk him into joining an intentional community and leaving modern life behind but it's too hard for a disabled woman. Honestly if healthy, I'd be selling everything and clearing out to most remote area I could find to live and be able to survive in. I told husband we should rent somewhere with land but then we become car dependent, far from hospital, far from specialists for me and I've needed more of them.

      That's horrible they called you stupid. I probably would go to town, me being Aspie telling them I didn't want to be a human GMO, but they probably wouldn't understand a word I said. I did have some people in emails express disgust with me, I didn't argue with these two on purpose, hey it is everyone's personal decision but I guess they think I am kind of dumb. Some people put this cartoon graph, had hillbillies on one end saying I don't want the 5g control, the people in middle taking the vaxx and then brainiacs saying there's too many things that make no sense testing the statistics. I tried to find it, but this is best way I can explain it. I read scary stuff about prions, see my twitter....[too freaked out to post even link here.....hope that guy is wrong. I saw this weird report by Classen. I still don't know how they are going to avoid ADE or severe autoimmune diseases. The scary prion guy thinks the bad effects will take 3-4 years to show up while other doctors say it will be by next flu season.

      Yeah your husband with his health concerns has to be careful. Yeah I am not voicing my opinion. One group even sent out a survey, but I know if I answered everyone would figure out it was me and husband. I am not doing so. I think we are in dangerous times now and we have to be safe. People aren't going to understand or care, I'm a woman diagnosed even with an autoimmune disease that's supposed to affect my muscles and is affecting the skin too, and have so many. I'm on the edge of full lupus too, not in the place to want to experiment. Yeah I don't want ugly mobs coming after me. Supposedly this country is right wing red, so maybe Id be safe around rural people and in the African American dominant area, but around here middle class and above whites, it's scary. I think a lot of apt people who have refused to wear masks don't buy into any of it but you never can be sure.Yeah stay safe where you are at.
      Thanks I will check out the Crotty video.

      Interesting comment:

      "27:15 If the purpose of vaccines are to make the immune system aware of, and hold the memory of a particular aspect of a virus for possible future response to a actual infection, then why would a person who's natural immune system, that successfully responded to the actual virus require a vaccine? "

      My concerns with the spike protein being a toxin definitely remain too

      Hey UU means Unitarian Universalist for my Unitarian Universalist church.

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  51. Hi Peeps,
    Thanks so much for all you responded here. Yea, the $530. covered the pathology too. Broken down, it doesn't sound that bad-$150. ea. biopsy, $75. ea. pathology, and $80. consultation. However I went back yesturday for myself, for something she was going to do pre-pandemic and which she couldn't do this past week, because I had a sunburn from working on the patio. She told me before it would cost $150. The day I went with husband, I had an appointment too for her to do it, but she decided against it, told me to come back one week later. Gave me sample soap and cream to put on it. Yesturday I returned, and when I went to pay, was told it was $360! I said what?!!! Said she was charging me a consultation fee for the week before and one for my husband today, plus $200. for the electrocauterization. I ended up going back to see her about it, as my husband was not even there, and if she wanted a consultation fee last time, wouldn't she have charged me for it then? I explained she told me would be $150 for procedure last time (would have paid $200 and not said anything) and that the Imiquimod prescription for husband I thought was follow up for his biopsy. She had wanted him back to remove his stitches this day, but I had already explained that I had a car appointment for service, so I would cut the stitches myself. Something I have had to do many times myself, as a skin cancer patient. It's no big deal. Continuing ...

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  52. Conginuing ... Certainly not worth the four hours round trip he would have to make or the three hours to wait for the car to be serviced or the leaving at 4:45 a.m. to get there on time. I ended up having a 15 hour day yesturday, I was toast by the time I got home! Anyway, she tried to justify the cost, saying she had given me meds for my sunburn and prescription for husband today etc., etc., and when I got back in line to pay, suddenly her assistant came out and interrupted the cashier with the news that it would be $150. for the procedure instead of the $200. as she found it noted in my file. The cashier, confused also, gave me back $50. As for the imiquimod cream for my husband's precancerous lesion, she prescribed "Aldara". I decided to check on the price at the hospital pharmacy on my out to see what the top price to pay would be. Was $35. for a box of three tiny packets, one dose each. He would need six boxes. I asked if they had a tube of it? No, it didn't come any other way. I said I felt sure I gad seen imiquimod in a tube, she said yes, but not Aldera. I ended up getting a tube of the 5% imiquimod prescribed for $35. total, enough for full treatment. I know that this is a place for the wealthy, but could she not have mentioned a generic or other alternative? Or am I suppose to bask in the knowledge that I got the best of the best and didn't ask questions. I'm afraid that in my case at least, my mind is way bigger than my wallet. What it must be like to have a wallet bigger than ones mind, I don't know.
    But this (in her case) may be related to the pandemic, as she was telling me during my apt. about her sending her kids to the States to be immunized. I asked if they just went or did they need an appointment? She said she had the appointment made, and that last time, they all went to Orlando and to Universal studios, and that her 16 and 17 year old got vaccinted at 7:00 p.m. and that they got tired afterwards, but not sure if it was the vax or all the fun. She said this week she will be sending her five year old son. I said I thought that was not recommended. She said it will be approved here in a couple months or so, but that she didn't want to wait. She said her husband (an anestigiologist) had seen too many covid payients in the ICU dying of covid. She said both her parents got it, and didn't know how she didn't get it because she was attending to them. Also his father had it. She said despite them being treated with Ivermectin or chloroquinine, they still ended up hospitalized (perhaps deceased if not, don't know). Continuing ...

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  53. Continuing ... I guess she must have my number by now, because this conversation started with her asking me if I had been vaccinated or whether I didn't want to be? I amswered that I was currently worried about the spike proteins made by the vaccine lodging into the organs of the body like ovaries, bone marrow, liver and brain, but that I was beginning to understand that the virus itself perhaps does the same in much bigger quantities (huge viral liads, huge spike protein trash) and that after I got a bigger understanding might be a pro for vaccination. As for my husband, I asked for the name of a good general med in the hospital for him. She gave me a referral.
    I've already told my husband, that I would lime for him to see a highly qualified General Med., get a current blood test for platelets, and run through his particular situation before doing anything. "I" am actually his biggest threat presently, given that he barely leaves the household. If I ended up deciding to get vaccinated myself, I would in turn reduce his risk as well. But this is something I would like to walk through with a doctor looking to his specific health issues in general. Just got interrupted again, hope this will be coherent, but would like to hear from a doctor advocating as to his particular health circumstances and make a more informed choice for him from there. Also, he could hear from someone other than myself, and make his own choice based on that as well.
    Ultimately, it will still be our own choice (as long as that is an option) as we are serking "medical advice". It will all depend on this particular doctor's argument. Continuing ...

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  54. Continuing ...
    On that, and onto something you touched on here, being that with the life you had amongst the pathologicals as well as your health concerns and bad medical advice, has naturally caused you to call things into question and decide for yourself, I completely agree. I mean we are naturally a product of our invironment, are we not? Being an Acon, all of the info I got from my mother was always tainted and self serving. It was never factually true. I have been ridiculed by the family early in life and later, most recently by my sister, for taking things people say apart trying to find the truth. I agreed with her and suggested it was only natural after a life with the mother I had, and suggested to her that the solution to that problem was not to make me feel about this, but to "stop feeding me a shit sandwich and calling it a steak dinner," and that I would stop picking it apart trying to prove otherwise.
    While at yhe agency yesturday, getting the car serviced on oil change etc., I was looking into some things on the internet on the vaccine. There was one doctor, from Texas, speaking to a legislative panel of some sort (sorry no note taking, standing outside instead of sitting indoors, in the air conditioned comfy covid invironment) and he was talking about the standard of care for covid patients in the U.S. He said that for the first time ever, he had felt "handcuffed" as a physician. That he felt denied his ability to ascertain via his knowledge and collected experience over the years as to how to best treat his covid patients symptoms and bring them relief. He said once it was known that a vaccine was being fast-tracked and would be available soon, that they were collectively told to send payients home with tylenol and tell them to wait. Many times, then needing hospitalization and emergency intervention, with so much time already lost. He asked the panel when this had ever been historically the standard of care for those in need? He said that had this been treated differently, allowing doctors to do what they do best, and to consult freely amongst one another, that there may very well have been discovered a very good treatment for this terrible virus. He said that the "experts," were not doctors in the field actually sering patients, but those who backed the science of the coming vaccine. Also said, when has there ever been only "one face" as to a healthcare crises of this magnitude? He also spoke of the lack of empathy on the part of those physicians slamming the door on their patients, saying, "I don't treat covid." Also talked about no info on the internet to be found, which had apparently been "scrubbed". He suggested that there should be a panel of physicians in the field opinionating on all these matters relating to covid, instead of a single face.
    Continuing ...

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  55. Continuing ...
    Honestly, my mind is doing flip flops on this. I am hoping to come to decision before the follow up vaccines here, but don't know that I will get there. It's looking doubtful, if they come back through after three weeks time.
    As for the "friend" she plays a part in this dicotomy of knowledge too. In that someone who came to home on a different matter, said that her husband had gotten a flight out (wasn't sure if she too) back to Europe. I looked at the latest grsvel restrictions for there, as I really looked forward to her being out of sight and out of mind. But two days later (and two days before their supposed flight) they changed the rules from negative results to proof of vaccination, with fourteen days after last vaccine. So I'm guessing they must have lined up for vaccines unless they want to stay here permanently.
    As for her and the "friend" issue, I did want to say one thing. I didn't ask for her email, she asked for mine. I don't even think I expected anything out of our acquaitainshp than what had been- a yearly blow through town by her. But after the thanksgiving lasagñe came xmas, and my classes with the kids began December 16th.cWe stained some coffee mugs, and one week later, a aouple days before xmas, we were baking xmas cookies, painting them, and finishing our project in general, as a mug filled with mint tea, hot chocolate, noel wafers, and the cookies. I didn't have a xmas dinner for us, much less invite anyone. I got the "my friend" telephone text, wishing me a merry xmas from "the other side of the mountain," which I found endearing. After I initiated contact months later, and recieved the email also calling me "my friend," I felt reason to pause, but ignored it. Subsequently, it was creeping me out, and I told my husband so. I didn't feel like a person any longer, but a cartoon character. It seems like, in retrospect, that I was being subliminy messaged somehow as to what my "role" was. I just didn't get that it wasn't a two way street until I asked for somethng (consideration) back. Continuing ...

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  56. Continuing ... I started explaining this whole situation to you earlier on, based on the comment you made about your friend complaining of a "too long of an email," but never finished. After she wouldn't tell me what the problem was, I went searching for myself, and a pattern emerged. There were the three long emails I sent, and none drew a response. There were a couple more, where I asked her to tell me about yhe trip they took to the neighboring country, and this went unanswered too. After all three emails, I sent something smaller within 15 to a few minutes more, usually a link to something I was looking at, and these were answered. It became obvious that yhe thinking on her part was, "I already told her this was not convenient, so I'm going to dignify it with an resresponse So, she took my emails as me putting her to task, instead of the spirit in which they were intended, which was to have a conversation with a friend.
    Another small amount to finish this up tomorrow. Hope you both are having a good day. Chelle.

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  57. Hi Peeps,
    Continuing from yesturday ...
    So, she no longer addressed me by name, but as "my friend." As I said, it gave me pause. After my final email to her saying I needed to give this situation and myself time to breathe, she taunted me further with the "my friend" entitled emails. She wanted to let me know they were thinking of us and hoped to have a good "catch up" when they returned. This because she had asked me trust her and to put all this on hold in order to have a face to face when she got here. That's when I said if we couldn't work it out here with nothing better to do, there was really no need. Also told her I could not ignore my gut and assume that I had somehow gotten it all wrong, that my gut had never failed me thus far. So her first email 11 days after mine, essentially kissing her goodbye, was a reiteration of the comtinued tower reception woes etc. In other words, "you got me and all this wrong." There were five of these, which I completely ignored. The last one adressing both of us as "Dear Friends," was an invitation to join them at a nearby restaurant as their "esteemed guests". I was picturing us sitting across from her as two piles of something steamy allright. She was obviousely setting me up for a smear campaign. She finally quit after this. Thank God. I read that letter you suggested on your blog, written by that unfortunate woman who invited the homeless woman into her home for what turned out to be 18 months, and then the nasty would be "thank you" email she should have received. What a slap in the face! Especially criticizing her for spending too much, when she had been spending it on this woman's own essentials. They (narcissists) will really floor you like that. Unfortunately, it's been my experience and observation that regardless of knowing we did the right thing or acted just as we should have, they still end up taking a piece of our soul on their way out the doing Continuing ...

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    1. Yeah I am glad you got away from her, you probably were set up for a smear campaign. The friend who ghosted me never responded back, just utter coldness. I tire of the "minnesota nice" types who never can utter one word to share any emotion. I talked to some Aspie friends about friendship troubles, some have given up. I feel so disappointed around people, I do think well maybe the problem is "You" [you know myself] but in my soul, they just hurt me. It's always a bunch of fake shit and being expected to be someone I am not. I even wrote I was hurt baring emotions and they never care. Remember I never said a harsh word to this person just cut off. Never trust the ones who turn everything into a show like that one. Oh yes I had a friend post about her unwanted guest, pretty nasty to use someone for free rent for a year and half and then turn on them in the end. Yes they always try to take a chunk of the soul on the way out. I think the ghosters realize that hurting me comes from just being as cold as possible so that is why they do it.

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  58. Continuing ...
    As for your health concerns and renting far far away, I understand that comes with inherent risks for you. Even here, there is a very large community of mostly americans and other nationalities, who refer to themselves as "expats" that live on the opposite end of the country from me. They live in the mountainour region where it is much cooler, where all the majority of flowers and vegetables grow very well. But they too live far from the capital, something like a ten hour drive. But they have the second capitol city very close to them, which I guess is a microcosom of the other. I've never gone. But I was looking for a local blog for some info I needed, and came across all these testimonials from these americans living here, on how they took a fellow american woman's tour on how to relocate here. It was entertaining to me to hear how this went for them and what their experience has been. We mived here too because it was just far enough behind the times to still be natural and beautiful and not so hectic and hustle and bustle. We haven't any regrets. If you would like to look at this for fun, let me know. Maybe I could send it alone, and you could keep it as a private message? Let me know.
    One more thought on my husband getting an appointment to see the recommended gen med. Another big reason I would also like for him and us to establish that relationship early, is also to find out his thoughts on treating covid. I would like to have that conversation earlier than later, and know what his game plan would be.
    This is a really good podcast about what we were talking about earlier, about the politization of ones beliefs in, or not, of the vaccine, and how people are using this as reason for division, and being told they are "a bad person" somehow for questioning the narrative: Absolute vs Relative Risk Reduction for COVID Vaccines (from livestream #78) Bret Weinstein's Dark Horse Podcast.
    I looked up the link you suggested before writing this, will have to try again. I probably had a minor spelling error or misplaced dash I guess. Take care. Hope to hear your thoughts if any as you have the time or feel like commenting. Chelle

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    1. I don't think moving overseas is in the cards for us now, just too expensive. However I may write you one day about where you escaped to. LOL. I do think about going to a new area of my state or elsewhere in the country that is more remote and rural but with all the health problems and needs for specialists, one reason we stayed here was medical care availability which is higher than most smaller towns. Even my old rural town, many of the specialists would have been an hour and half around. Thanks for the podcast on the vaxx. Yeah I am being told I am a "bad" person. I've kept my mouth shut beyond vague hints in most circles, but it's created distance with me and others, a thought of "why bother" as I can't be me or share thoughts. I remember even on UU zoom I said "I don't trust this new mRNA technology" and everyone ignored me. I feel like people have gone mad not to question any of this. Hell I even hung out at a science board to test my own theories but those people were such complete assholes, this told me, that something is very wrong. They minimized and excused the myocarditis, ignored multitudes of questions, and depended on insults instead of really answering anything. Such arrogance. I can tell these are the types who are going to end up killing us all being such "know it alls" with closed down linear thinking.

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  59. Hi Peeps,
    Just wanted to pass on the very good news about ivermectin for prevention of covid, early treatment of covid, and late treatment of covid. See the youtube with Dr. Been interviewing Dr. Malik on this very important paper with charts and real world stats on this very safe, very well tolerated medicine with 40 years of history, and very inexpensive, like $1.a dose. Also, a collegue, Dr. Kory has been taking it for 8 months prophylactically, he treats long haulers and other covid patients, and has not yet contracted covid himself. This is the most encouraging news and report I have heard to date. (also, similar report and interview done by Dr. Been with Dr. Pierre Kory, talking about how whenever Mexico passed these packets out to the public in peak pandemic times, the number of cases went way way down immediately following it.)
    Also super encouraging is the paper and work done by Dr. Bruce Patterson, (also interviewed by Dr. Been) having cracked the problem with long haulers and came up with a 4-6 week therapy to treat the vasodilation from the S1 protein with a CCR5 antagonist, Statins and Ivermectin, which is also an antinflamatory. He's cured many long haulers, getting their immune systems back to where they need to be. Continuing ...

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    1. I am working now to get a supply of Ivermectin. I want to have some on hand before I rejoin normal life. I don't know if I can take the risk with my own doctor. I need 100 dollars to contact doctors online and with my complex history fear the bill becoming HUGE. I may bring it up to my doctor when I see him next. I don't want to experiment with trying to obtain Ivermectin from other sources. Yes I am collecting some studies now, and it is going into the mainstream now more as an "accepted treatment".

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  60. Continuing ...
    I know you want to keep things on the down low, but in case you hadn't heard, I definately wanted to share this vital info. with you, especially given your own health concerns. Publish it or not here, of course totally your call, but I did want you at least to have it. Don't know how your hearing efvects you in listeni g to these, but if not you then r. Peeps, as none will disappoint.
    Hope all is well with you both. Chelle

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    1. I use transcribe phone on some podcasts especially if they are important, just hold it above the computer. Thanks. I am researching this area. just hope I can find a doctor to prescribe it. Hope mine is open to it. Because of complexities of my medical situation, I would rather have someone more familiar with me. I was going to try and find a local doctor, who is on conservative side of things but don't have the cash on hand to pull that off, because then I'm going off insurance to make that happen. Money has to be reserved for husband's a medical procedure. Even the online doctors could charge hundreds of dollars. I may have to say to mine, look I need you to deal with this, it could save my life. I need a back up especially when I rejoin any life or seeing people. Mentally I don't think I can handle living like this for long.

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  61. Continuing ...
    Almost forgot, also see Dr. Beens youtube on VAERS report, showing 53% of reported events are myocarditis in young people ages 12-24, who only account for 9% of those being vaccinated. They say right there, that clearly this is a concern. He also does schematic himself on which vaccines fow which age groups and underlying conditions or ethnicities. You're probably all ready ahead of me on these, but wanted to send them in case you weren't. Chelle

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    1. Almost 1 out of 10 with a severe adverse hospital level impact. My father got pericarditis at age 21, it destroyed his life, and health. He wasn't as sick as me but disabled by 50s, he also died of something related to it too, that many years later. He never had normal heart. The fact they want to give this shit to someone like me who has an immense history of pericarditis [father] arteritist [sister] and Kawasaki [nephew] is insane. I don't have contact but found myself wondering if relatives have died of taking the vaxx because of this health history. Hopefully their doctors warned them but the way things are going probably not. In normal world a vaxx with horrible hospital effects for 1 in 10 would be stopped. And the insanity of knowing these young people would barely be affected by Covid, if at all, makes me even more angry and upset.

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  62. Hi again Peeps,
    Just wanted to say that I saw Dr. Been has a youtube on where to get ivermectin inexpensively. I can't look at it now, am on the road. Had to suddenly bring my little dog into the vet in the city. He has been coughing too much today. He's 18, a pomeranian. She said it is his heart murmer and he has some fluid in his lungs. She prescribed a diuretic, will see a vetrinary cardiologist for the rest. You would think we go to the doctor a lt, but we really don't. Just circumstancial. I look forward to reading your new article later. Take care, Chelle.

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    1. Thanks Chelle, I will look Dr. Been up. I hope the vet can help your little dog too. Understand sometimes I have a glut of doctor appointments all at once.

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