This was a question I asked myself. I had these troubling thoughts for years, shutting them down before I faced it head on and confronted it. Something was wrong with a God that demanded blood and sacrifices. When I found this link challenging Christianity's ties to ancient human sacrifice, this told me I was in a religion that had foundations of brutality and bloodlust. It just wasn't going to work anymore. I believe a God is possible as an agnostic, or some kind of "divine source" but the God that wants blood, and more suffering in such a harsh world and threatens people with hell, is a monster to me. Then there's the scapegoat issue that brings up other issues. It makes you wonder how our culture and world could have developed with a "nicer" religion not based on cruelty and violence. Some Christians believe in a different view of the cross of course and whhat it meant.
I was raised non-religious so I got lucky there. What a lot of people don't understand is that not believing in a God doesn't mean not believing in love, care for others, ethics, etc.
ReplyDeleteThere are Unitarian Universalists in my general area but of course like anything "white" if you don't have a car, you can't participate. They don't want poors around, after all.
My local Buddhist temple is accessible by bike or walking and light rail, and they're very welcoming. There's a smattering of white people; it's mostly Japanese. Before the virus, I have to say, it was a blast as such things go. The various holidays or get-togethers had great food and the people are really nice. What's nice is, that sect of Buddhism is big in Hawaii too (Jodo Shinshu, which is huge in Japan and in the US is officially the Buddhist Churches of America).
Yes you are very lucky to have been raised non-religious. You got none of the Catholic or evangelical nightmares. Here's a book suggestion for you, I loved this book, it even explained why the morality of the right wing evangelical set is so suspect, but made it clear you don't need God or traditional religion to have ethics, morals or care about others. I read it from the library...
Deletehttps://www.amazon.com/What-Means-Be-Moral-Necessary/dp/1640092749
Yeah with no car many things are hard to participate in, I had that problem with NAAFA in the Chicago area, remember complaining about how everything was held in far flung suburbs never on the subway or train. I agree about "white" events being relegated to off suburb and train lines. I went back to the UU kind of accepting the class stuff, like I knew it would be a problem ahead of time. My UU treats us well, small fellowship--Covid I think is having us teeter on not existing anymore [down to 20 core people former fellowship of 40-45] but one thing about the UU, the people in are very wealthy.
It sometimes is hard dealing with the socioeconomic chasm there. They do truly see the world in a different way. The UU has dealt with some class issues but I belonged to this one website on Facebook for a time discussing class issues and the UU, lots of upset people, working class or poor who didn't feel "accepted" and I definitely had smatterings of those issues in bigger city churches. The issue is being talked about now, but at least UU supports economic justice, fair wages etc. I think they could grow far greater if these class issues were somehow overcome. Certainly on this blog, you know how I am one of those poors, that lives on the fringes. I would say one socioeconomic cultural issue I face, is the wealthier professional class, is far less emotional in it's language and desire for connection. Like anything personal they do not like.
Of course I faced serious class issues while with the fundamentalists, in that world you better have at least your middle class house, white picket fence and cadre of children. I believe evangelicalism and fundamentalism will die out among the young based on these issues alone. Only the boomers can afford the lifestyle that is assumed there.
I think one reason Trump got so many "deplorable" voters is class resentment. I have had difficulty in past liberal circles due to class.
I am glad the Buddhists are much more welcoming. It sounds like a great group and probably helps it is more Japanese people who have different values. Glad you had a blast there. Yeah I enjoyed my UU, but now the Zooms are not the same. If this covid crap continues, I think about leaving the area or country? They sound like great people. Some UUs in my area belonged to an informal Buddhist group but I don't think it is operating at this present moment. I know this one nice man we met and wanted to befriend at a protest was an active participant but sadly he died.
Yep the local UU is up in the Santa Cruz mountains and I've been around enough smug Santa Cruz hippies to know what it's like - intense classism.
DeleteBuddhism in the USA is basically that same kind of classist hippies/yuppies doing Zen, and then what I call working-class Buddhism which is participated in by people who are either working-class or one generation removed from it, and are almost all Asian. The place I go to or at least went to, smells like incense and the people eat fishy-smelling foods, and a good part of the service is in Japanese, and things like this seem to keep the yups scared away.
The chanting is in Japanese and it's fun because it's a good voice workout, and it has its own kind of musical notation which is easy to pick up because it uses the traditional pentatonic scale. Plus, keeping up with this and making sure to breath enough while singing, leaves just enough room to read the English translations at the bottom of the page and it's all the most wonderful stuff.
Yeah that sounds like a very wealthy UU. Classism is a problem in the UU. I went back to the UU kind of accepting that would be a problem ahead of time. I know even the fellowship we are in, we probably are at the lowest socioeconomic level. Santa Cruz even being wealthier it probably would be a big issue. I thought about talking to you about Richard Gere and wealthy Buddhists, but glad you realize those things. I didn't fit in those circles. I have a little bit of problem with induced minimalism, when involuntary has been part of my life, aka I am used to going without. I definitely can see working class mostly Asian Buddhism being definitely of a more positive and better flavor. LOL keep all the yups away. It would be fun to chant in another language being able to learn it, I am glad they have English translations. I have a fascination with Japanese culture, I have not shared here much, but spend my time watching Japanese videos all the time and anime quite a bit.
DeleteI do hope the UU can change a bit and attract people in lower socioeconomic groups. They have wrote programs like "Class Conversations". Things were a bit better on my return but there can be a lot of elitism among the very wealthy. I have noticed class differences even in language and outlook. Upper middle class and above people do tend to be more reserved and more formal in their language.
https://www.facebook.com/uuclassconversations/
Zen Buddhism was always practiced by the upper classes, while Shin Buddhism was working-class. You have to dig into the history of Buddhism and the various schools of it, but Shin Buddhism is what's called the Pure Land school.
DeleteThe type of Buddhism you see in India and Thailand, etc., is called Theravada Buddhism and it's the branch that says you have to "earn" enlightenment. Pure Land Buddhism says no, enlightenment is available to everyone; the acts done to "earn" enlightenment generally are only things the well-off can afford to do.
Chanting in another language is easy for me because I grew up singing Hawaiian without knowing at least half of it. This area I'm in is great for Asian culture because it's everywhere.
Yeah, I think that Buddhism is a minority with a minority around here! There's probably, on balance, more Jews than Buddhists, if I had to guess (if only because there's a cemetery here in town, as you know). I think you're awfully generous to name only one plot hole in Christianity -- there's loads more, though that probably could be a book in and of itself! As you know, my experience was unusual, in that I had one parent who was fairly religious, and one who was totally opposite -- I often wondered how they got together. Maybe it was a case of "opposites attract," or something along that line, who knows? But a lot of the stuff being flogged in its name is a hell of a lot more extreme than what I remember growing up in the '70s, when the debates about whether "Jesus music" was acceptable in the eyes of the Almighty was about as hot button as it got. At least in our church, anyway. :-) Love, Mr. Peep
ReplyDeleteSince I'm in California where we have a lot of Asians, I'm not sure if we've got more Buddhists or Jews. That's a quirk of the West Coast though. Buddhists will be a tiny minority in the rest of the US.
DeleteYou probably do have more Buddhists there with a higher population of Asians. Asians are rare where we live though there's a few. As far as Jews, I lived in a county without even one synagogue--the rural town, but there's one here.
DeleteI actually very seriously considered converting to Reform Judaism with the idea of moving to Israel to retire. I could live in Tel Aviv which is a beach city like Honolulu, not need to own a car, etc.
DeleteI am not a bog-standard white person. I'm actually part Tatar, so kind of half-assedly part Asian, if you concede that it's Western Asian. I don't have the classic East Asian facial features, but I look like I'm "something". So while no one's going to mistake me for East Asian or even an East Asian hapa, I could pass for some kind of a weird Jew just because Jews have such a wide variety of features.
So I've gone to services at the local Reform Jewish place, and was really "all systems go" but between there and the Buddhist temple, the latter feels more like home. The people there are the kind of people I grew up around, and the foods and so on are the ones I grew up with.
Also, becoming Jewish means you have to at least pay lip service to that weird god of theirs, and you have to hate Arabs, and there's just a whole lot of stuff I don't want to take on.
Oh, we've got scads of Buddhist temples around here, I just normally count the BCA/Jodo Shinshu ones but there are tons of Vietnamese ones and a couple other sects of Buddhism too.
DeleteI lived in Prescott, Arizona for a while and the local Reform Jewish synagogue looked like this little building that I'd driven past all the time and I thought it was some utility building or something ... very unremarkable. Well, I went in for a service to check it out and it's 90% underground and big and beautiful inside. And in that little far-right town, the Jews all knew each other and I met some nice people.
That would be an idea become a reformed Jew and move to Tel Aviv. I was in a UU with tons of reformed Jews who attended when I was in Chicago, some went to both services even. I had an interest in it, there is some overlap there in belief and more.
DeleteProbably life in Tel Aviv even with their problems, my be superior to America especially as things go down here, though maybe climate issues would be hard to deal with.
So do people think you are white or 'something else', I am in that strange 'something else" category, people asking me if I am Greek, Italian or Native American.....it's all happened here. I am darker than your average white person and have black/dark brown hair and eyes. I believe it's the Hungarian making me so dark. Half German and Half Hungarian [the phony grandfather was Irish but real grandfather Hungarian to the core and the family so since he cheated with Hungarian grandmother, I am fully half Hungarian] I don't think people know what category to put me in. My facial features don't fit any other races either. Even my hair is very rough. I am way too tall and big to pass for some groups. LOL I don't look like anyone. it's rare for me to even see anyone near my coloring and looks even beyond the weight. This one guy hit on me around 7 years ago, saying I looked exotic, I told him I was married. He probably was a fat admirer.
So do you past for being part Asian. You probably could pass for being Jewish too. When I lived in Chicago, I used to go to a neighborhood that was very Jewish and buy bread and things from their delis, I was really too large to "fit in" but Jews do have a large variety of features. They always treated me nice.
I can understand you feeling the attraction to the Reformed Jews, but feeling like you fit in more with the Buddhists. I guess in the UU, I can freely explore BOTH, and there's many Jewish thinkers that impact the UU and important Buddhists I've read the books of like Thich Nhat Hanh. I am not around anyone like who I grew up with. Even culturally the UU is very removed from the hardcore Catholicism. Sometimes I envy the people who got to grow up UU, they were brought up with very different messages than I was. A lot more enrichment and better education too.
Yeah I couldn't be Reformed Jewish, because my opinion of Yahweh is pretty low. I know many liberal Jews are functional atheists and agnostics but probably one's still attending synagogue and practicing would still have attachment to that God, though definitely they'd be like liberal Christians, taking the good bits, or preaching you can argue with God--a part of Judaism I always liked. The Talmud has some things in it, that many would find objectionable. And yes the whole Arab vs Jews baggage would be way too much. I couldn't take it on either. I don't believe in God anymore in the way it is defined by traditional religions, where many religions, synagogues, and churches would not suit me. Unitarian Universalist fits me the best. I have told husband we must never move into an area with no UU church ever again. I do know I would have to be cautious of UU churches that have grown classist or elitist, I know that is a problem though it is being addressed. I like Buddhism and study aspects of it, but it's not a good personality fit, mindfulness etc, doesn't work very well for a fidgety Aspie. I avoid the hard core meditation sessions even of one mindfulness group that my UU church has, going when they do art projects based on it but avoiding full meditation.
Yep Tel Aviv gets HOT and they're desalinating water, not a good sign. Plus for all the soldiers on the street there are attacks, and being poor I'd end up living where there are tons of unhappy Ethiopians. I could probably get along OK with the Ethiopians by helping them learn English and stuff but is that how I'd want to live as opposed to being Home?
DeleteYeah when moving to a place you have to look at all the pros and cons. A place low on water and with extreme heat now, probably may be facing some horrible things with climate change. I live near Great Lakes, I kept thinking about that even when exploring going to another country like Europe--Germany has had massive droughts. We would never want for water here. Hell if all goes pear shaped, I probably could have clean drinking water just getting some charcoal and boiling out lake water. Eco-migration is going to take over other parts of the developed world, [the Ethiopians] The people to stay alive will have no choice, I read where India is going to surpass wet bulb temperatures and go into an zone where human life can't survive. They don't have air conditioning in many poor areas. I think our scientists should have been dealing with the massive energy and climate problem rather then trillions being invested in overseas wars, what a waste! Germany has had a serious country wide drought for three years with trees dying and rivers drying up. I got afraid [see emigration post] of buying new troubles. Even if we sold everything we would just have money to get there and probably no money to survive. Sometimes devil you know is better than devil you don't. I wish things didn't have to suck so much though.
DeleteHi Mr. Peep. Hey check out the website google debunking christianity. I know of some books written of the plot holes in Christianity. Hmm too bad we didn't get a chance to deconvert a man with a thick beard. LOL
ReplyDeleteThere's lots of them. Today I can't even believe I bought into all that nonsense. I wish we had a better religion if there was going to be one, that truly honored truth instead of fantasy. I find a lot more to respect in Judaism [well at least the reformed level] and Buddhism. Buddhism seems to get some things correct about life or offer some real remedies. I don't plan to be a Buddhist, but they had some wisdom there.
Yeah your parents were different with one being an atheist and one so religious. Maybe that was opposites attract. At least your father wasn't an "in the closet atheist" like mine that shut down all religious discussion because he was my mother's mind slave. I think in the 70s Jesus was seen more for helping the poor and stuff like that, though the Jesus Movement warped into the poisonous Calvary Chapel stuff. One thing I think your church was moderate when you are a child, moderate mainliner, but since I went to that book club, they are like fundies now in many beliefs, [against homosexuality, pro-life, told me women should obey men, etc etc. the evangelical parachurch organizations and supply side Jesus types have influenced even the most mainline churches. Probably only the ELCA among Lutherans has remained immune.
I am thankful everyday you did not convert in. LOL
CHristianity means shutting down one's mind. Sad to say. I am so glad to be out.
Love Mrs. Peep.
Lilac
ReplyDeleteI think it’s rather that humans were hooked on blood sacrifice and the only way to stop it was to have a God who loved them so much that He was willing to sacrifice himself for them rather than the other way around. Note that God was for the most part against child sacrifice even in the Old Testament. Even the binding of Isaac, often misinterpreted as a test of blind loyalty to God, was probably more a lesson along these lines, or a misinterpretation of what God was telling him to do from being brought up in a world where human sacrifice was the norm.
I remember some Christians having that theory that it was God putting a stop to all the former blood sacrifice. I think there's a wide variety. I do think some Christian religion goes way too far with the blood sacrifice elements, I even wonder if that is an "add on" like hell, well the whole communion as eating Christ's flesh and drinking "his blood" always was a bit hard, I struggled with this when young, Protestants said it was symbolic. I agree about Isaac. I do often wonder why more was made of Christ's death than life, [of course Resurrection should be a big deal] at times.
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