For those into Leonard Cohen, they know he was singing about God.
He sings "A million candles burning for the help that never came."
This song sums up some of my recent spiritual ponderings. It's hard, to be in a deconversion process. It upends your whole world. You get scared of even trying to figure out who is safe to tell and who is not. I guess the cat is out of the bag now. I have recently lost several online friends for leaving the traditional Christian camp. Some good and true friends have stuck by me.
I have spoken of seeking after a more loving God then the one I was presented with in fundamentalist Christianity. I will remember the positive and good teachings of Jesus, but my spiritual picture has definitely changed. My view of God and religion has as well. The false promises and more came to a head. Some may ask "What happened to your faith in God?" I realized this world is not what they presented it as being to me. Reality became too apparent.
The idea of direct intervention failed when my dreams of at least a little bit of justice faded. The veil was ripped off, and I prayed for justice or at least a little bit of comfort instead of the wicked always "winning" and those prayers were never answered. I have to deal with life as it is, not losing my head in magical thinking. I cannot hold to a God who is more like my abusers. I am still a theist unlike the author of that article, but many of their points stand out to me.
I can't accept hell and other traditional Christian teachings. I may be able to find some areas of commonality with liberal Christians, but I also now consider a return back to Unitarian Universalism too. I miss in some ways who I was even back then. I spent over 12-13 years in that church as a young adult, at least there was one was free to question and seek. There was some interaction instead of just edicts from on high. My self esteem needs recovery. While I definitely was messed up from all the abuse and health problems and still in the narcissistic fog during my UU years, spiritually I was happier. I wasn't locked down in a box of fear and perpetual gloom that the spiritual abuser took advantage of.
Spiritually I can't live under the gloom of condemnation, and the ignoring of reality. I have to go where the love and compassion are. That's not in fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity for me anymore. It's time for freedom and whatever happiness I can find.
Dear Peeps, way too many of these preachers need to grow a heart. Just read an article from one of them, and yeah, i know what the Scriptures say about women are to be silent in church. Okay i get it; ut ain't about culture. However, the preacher came off really cold. i do not expect preachers to water down the Bible, but i do expect compassion. No wonder that same Bible warns of too many teachers.
ReplyDeleteOh see comment below...Sue..scroll down.
DeleteDear Peeps, that article i was describing was just another "no help" piece of bible-ese. Uh, some women cannot ask their husbands - for various reasons. While reading the article, i could not help but to see a hard, smug look on the preacher's face as he prepared his article. Not one word for women who are hurting. Just ticks me off, these so-called men of God. i do not want to pass judgment, but their fruits just don't smell right.
ReplyDeleteI saw the IFB bubble, everything was go ask your husband and father, like there were no narcissists, drunks, husbands of other religions and belief, druggies or men who were not like Ward Cleaver, and Ward Cleaver would probably be considered a "dirty liberal" by today's IFB/fundie standards. He sits down with Beaver and Wally and talks to them and doesn't take a belt to them and allows his wife to discuss household finances and plans. Religion is about a power contest, and men of dubious motives want to lord over women. I am glad to be free of the middle class and above, men in suits, telling me what to think and believe.
DeleteI don't like or trust preachers much, I know a few nice female ones in various mainline/liberal denominations, but honestly I think the power especially in fundie and evangelical churches goes to their heads. I used to agree with that verses as a fundie, they convinced me that women should keep "to their place" with blah-blahs about protection, men being heads of the household, etc etc. Now I take it for what it is, just more of the usual oppression. That's a man-made edict when half of humanity is rendered silent. Even in your most fundie church, it's being broken anyhow as there's plenty of women to talk before and after service, but still reigns them in unfairly. Sue the switch came for me, when I asked why isn't the Bible always compassionate, that verse isn't.
ReplyDeleteOne of my most happy moments in life was when I dug into the ancient languages and realized what the bible was saying with the words, hell, hades, sheol. The English, greek and Hebrew words that mean the exact same thing. Its too long a text to explain here, but I saw that the bible itself doesn't teach a burning hellfire for all eternity for sinners. All these words taken into context denote the common grave of mankind. "Lake of fire" or "gehenna" "pit" was a symbolized eternal destruction, not a demonic fantasy land where they could torture souls forever. Why would a loving God reward such rebels the pleasure of sadistic practices they all crave? Its a foolish dream of the dark ones they twisted the scriptures to mean to fool us into a false religious belief. The downfall of all false organized religion? Welllll. After that we won't see anymore of these psychopathic belief structures taught in Babylon. No more bables. Don't forget rev. 20:10 where the devil and his followers are tossed into the lake of fire. If he's destroyed, how can he spend eternity being head honcho in "hell"?
ReplyDeleteBefore I deconverted I was studying Christian Universalism.[to be honest the only denomination those teachings would be acceptable in is Unitarian-Universalism and restricted to the alternative "theists". I suppose some are more conservative home-churchers.
DeleteI read online websites, that talked about how the original language of the bible meant only "death too" and sheol, the "grave". Some Christians like Seventh Day Adventists believe in annihilation, when you die, you're gone if you aren't saved and there's no hell. {not sure that would make anyone feel much better but I guess it's better then eternal suffering} Hell I believe had to be created for control and humanity wide Stockholm Syndrome, the priests and controllers, used it to keep people in line and used fear to do so. It definitely has evolved through time. Well religion has itself too. Funny given the teachings against evolution. Religions are changing with mankind.
I often consider that the hell/priests control divide really grew stronger as nation states came to be with kings and dictators instead of agricultural tribal societies. Hell got even more refined in the Middle Ages, with Dante and pals who added the levels and other legends.
I became a UU when young disturbed about hell. I don't know why I repressed those thoughts but they plagued me even during my years in as a Christian. That indoctrination as a child is strong about hell, and the pastors and priests know it. The idea of a loving God, creating a place like hell and sending most people there, offends all ideas of love and compassion. The God works in mysterious ways excuse no longer works for me. Hell is psychopathic. Perhaps hell is a creation of false organized religion, all about power and control. I always wondered why Satan was pictured "ruling" hell too. Strange how a lot of religious stuff doesn't add up.
Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Ba'al in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to Ba'al. Something I had not commanded or spoken of or had come into my heart.
ReplyDeleteI studied Ba'al before. What is weird about this verse, is if God burns people in hell, isn't that burning people in fire. I went and looked at web pages that talk about blood sacrifice in Christianity and how human sacrifice was the foundation of so many religions from Aztec on and in the middle east. Of course it was changed to animal sacrifices later in Judaism, but Jesus's sacrifice is based on a "replacement" for human sacrifices. Sorry to get into deep theology here. LOL
Deletehttp://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2009/10/human-sacrifices-and-death-of-jesus.html
Rene Girard has some good work on drawing the connections between scapegoating and demonism. Can you imagine which 'sons' where picked to sacrifice to demonic gods? Its like satan instilled the process in followers very early in human history. Girard was a brilliant intellectual who was an atheist his whole life until he stopped studying all the ancient myths about the evil scapegoat who the masses had to destroy and moved into the bible expecting the same theme. Wouldn't you know, the bible sided with the scapegoat. Only ancient text in human history that knew what the whole triangulation thing was really about. I find it interesting that most demonic gods come in triads of gods. Three , triangles , it all ties into the psychopathic method. //// The best difference between gehenna and hell is, you can be resurrected from the grave/hell, hades, sheol, but from the lake of fire, or "second death" there is no resurrection. You simply don't exist any longer. Sorry for the fixation, I love reading this stuff.
ReplyDeleteI've heard Rene Girard's name before. I have ran across the idea of Christus Victor atonement before. I ran into some alternative/liberal Christians as I was deconverting. It's interesting, as he is saying it is a stand against the violence of the ancient era but if the doctrine of hell remains intact seems to be wishful thinking when the totality of Christian doctrine and scripture enters in. I haven't studied him enough to know his beliefs about hell. One could fathom that there is siding with the scapegoat in that Jesus was resurrected, but the whole idea of scapegoating or needing a scapegoat for an ACON rubs one a bit wrong. That was just one little teeny tiny bit of my questioning. Revelation when God comes back to basically blow this place up, doesn't seem to bring that idea of gentleness and peace and the triumph of the scapegoat. Girard's theories interesting, but along the line of someone trying to screen out the moral and good in Christianity while ignoring the more unpleasant parts. Even I say things to people like as I have moved on, I will respect the good moral teachings of Jesus so He means well, but I don't think it is a belief I can subscribe to in describe reality. It's interesting of course. That is interesting about the demonic gods coming in triads, I used to hear that from non-trinitarian sects on religious boards, that the "trinity" was of pagan origins. Hey I have read and studied too much religion for my own good. :P
Deletehttp://reknew.org/2017/05/christus-victor-atonement-girards-scapegoat-theory/
Dear Peeps and Friends, heard an audio that blew me away. A gent named Hutson Smelley described "fool" and "scoffer." Going into Proverbs, especially, both descriptions sound like modern day narcs and malignant narcs. Per the Scriptures, he summed up in one word concerning these sorts of people. RUN! While sermonaudio.com is the BEST, even there, sermons which explain how the wickeds operate, and how the rest of us can be prepared, be on guard...such sermons are few and far between. No wonder people walk! Unfortunately there's way too many preeeeecherzzzz (tares?) who slam social media -- i.e., we're supposed to remain ignorant, and die a little every day. i 've been told that i should avoid social media, and so didn't blog for months. Not listening to that luddite shiola any more. People are dying, and to just sit, with a vapid little smile...not happening!
ReplyDeleteOh they tried to pull the Luddite garbage on me, who are we supposed to talk to in modern America? The remnant fundamentalists [people who left all the churches, believing them to be Babylon] told me to dump the internet and TV that it was all of Satan. My IFB churches told me to do likewise. I was in a church so conservative many got rid of their TVs, I never did and wasn't planning to. They had gardens, families, boats, tons of local friends, and walking in the woods to busy themselves with, I was housebound! I ignored these edicts. Honestly be careful Sue of the Christian Conspiracy set who will want you to limit your world to nothing. I believe there's conspiracies out there still--with rich jerks wanting more money, but the be afraid of everything stuff, is OVER WITH FOR ME. They will mess up your mind more then any closet "luciferians" and seeing some rock videos on the internet. Sure the pastors don't preach about evil people and gaslighting and money grabs, because it may reveal some of their tricks. LOL I can't be a pod person anymore. I tried to fit in a world really where I did not belong. I am still trying to figure out WHY. I think it was rooted in the earlier abuse, all the demands that I make myself perfect and the burden to FIX everything, maybe I figured religion would help me accomplish this. At least the UUs won't tell me everyday I am worthless, evil and a wretched creature. I can be accepted the way I am today. I hope you understand. To be honest in fundamentalist Christianity, outside a few online friends, I never had a close friend in any of my fundie churches just acquaintances and activity buddies, the whole world is on appearances, there's no being real. At least now I can be me. People are walking because there's reasons. The religious right right now is making sure there's going to be plenty of empty churches in about 20 years especially as they push their "trickle down" Reagan crap on younger people that especially can't afford it. This country should be having a national strike like the Europeans do by now. Too many brainwashed and many were brainwashed in the church pews. Run from the vapid little smile people. You are allowed your beliefs, but don't put yourself through what I did, trying to smash a round peg into a square hole. I'm glad to be free of the cognitive dissonance too having liberal values around the authoritarian set.
DeleteYour whole blog is based on the innocent being crushed by the temporally strong. If Christ's message of destruction of the wicked for the survival of pure doesn't ring true with your experiences as a scapegoat, what do you feel the message of the bible is? Universal power to eliminate the foes of purity does pertain to the struggle between the powerful and the "weak". Too much intellectualism can mask this message. Ancient ministry had to reason with ancient practices saturated by demonic propaganda. He does speak to modern Christians, even through struggles like yours.
ReplyDeleteHere's a major problem: Jesus Christ was a SCAPEGOAT TOO.
DeleteWhat does that say about Yahweh, or God the Father. Yes in the Trinity Jesus is God too. But consider this, under God's system a SCAPEGOAT was demanded, who set up the system to begin with?
Christianity itself is based on ancient notions of blood sacrifice. People like the Aztecs sacrificed people believing it would make sure the sun would come up. Then Judaism moved this to animal sacrifices instead of human and with Jesus he became the substitutionary atonement" One question I came to after I believed hell was evil--what kind of God wants to BURN most of humanity for eternity, was why was a blood sacrifice demanded in the first place and who demanded it?
The use of scapegoats began in the OT as detailed in the article below and Jesus Christ was made a Scapegoat by God.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Azazel-scapegoat.html
"Truly, the Old Testament rituals carry a depth and richness that only God could create. The Day of Atonement foreshadowed the ultimate atonement Christ provides. No longer do we need to sacrifice animals to cover our sins, nor do we need to impute our sins to a scapegoat to have them carried away. Jesus has been sacrificed and “scapegoated” for us. Our sins have been atoned for and removed. “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves,” we are told in Hebrews 10:1. “For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. … Those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. … We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:3-4, 10)."
If I rejected being a scapegoat, why would I accept it in religion?
continuing...
Look I understand why Christianity is attractive to people, I became a Christian for 16 years. I loved the story of Jesus sacrificing Himself for mankind, and I believed it was true. I then asked who or why was this kind of sacrifice made necessary? What were we being saved from? I even had this thought, that in some ways Jesus almost was to be a our rescuer from God the Father. Where is the love in a Being who felt He had to have his own son killed [or himself] to save humanity from sin? Maybe my own human compassion, thinks there is something wrong with 95 percent of humanity burning in hell. Maybe something is wrong with all these demanded sacrifices to begin with Yahweh started to remind me of my own parents who expected perfection and conformity at all costs. God made humanity all these "imperfect" beings and then threated to burn us to charcoal for not being perfect. Something is wrong with that equation. It reminded me of the demanded perfection of narcissists. I don't want all my enemies to burn in hell by the way. I'd rather Queen Spider even be shown the truth or CHANGE, but even imaging her burning in some place for eternity brings me no solace only despair, and feelings of things should have been different. Destroying the wicked, brings me no comfort. Knowing that in bible prophecy God plans to destroy the earth--Revelation brought me no comfort either. Learning that this earth has had 6 Epochs of extinctions, see book, "The Ends of the Earth" told me that Genesis is merely man trying to understand things they do not understand, I am trying to fill the holes in my science education now, but I realize now the Bible does not describe REALITY. [sorry for any I shock or offend with this but I came out of hard core creationist fundamentalism that taught me evolution was false for over a decade.
DeleteI am now by my own fundamentalist church's teachings one of the wicked and "fallen away" now deemed as chaff for God's burning furnace. To be honest, I do not see God as ever having defended the weak. As I wrote here, my prayers were not answered. Christianity became this emotional and mental prison that hurt me. It told me #1 I was not good enough and #2 that I needed to be fixed. It told me other human beings were all wicked and fundamentalism used to tell me to have nothing to do with them, a teaching I ignored.
Being told I was not good enough and I need to be fixed, This was the same exact message as my narcissistic parents. There is a reason while I had some good online Christian friends I never found acceptance or true love in Christian circles. To be honest with you, oh I write this with fear because I don't want to offend people, I feel like humanity as a whole is under a world-wide Stockholm Syndrome via toxic religion. Told they are wicked, bad, that wanting to know is bad--so many religions against science it's been a bad thing.
DeleteMany who have deconverted talk about how God reminded them of a malignant narcissist, making demands, all those violent genocides, seriously read Ezkiel chapter 9 he demands even the death of children by the Israelites, and all the blood sacrifices. When I noticed the religious right growing more evil, I kept thinking something is wrong here, and I had the thought that a "brutal God" was making for "brutal people" it just wasn't "false Christians" anymore as I told myself in the pit of Cognitive Dissonance wondering why love and compassion were GONE among the so called religious but something was inherently wrong with the operating system of Christianity itself. I can respect the liberal Christians who take the best out of the system and adhere to the good teachings of Jesus and discard the worse but I no longer believe, so that's not an option for me
The whole system is MESSED UP. Look I love my Christian friends, I had a very hard time telling them I no longer believed. I just managed to tell some recently, I couldn't talk about it for months. I wouldn't wish deconversion on anyone, it is tough. You look at years worth of a worldview and it cracks. How am I supposed to base my life on teachings that modern science has discounted, or accept ancient blood sacrifices and understanding of the world as my present reality. In this life I want to be on the side of love and compassion. I found out the UUs have a new slogan Stand Where the Love is, maybe some would find that too idealistic, but to me it means something good, a human being should go where the Love is. I dream of a loving God, who doesn't shove people into hell, and who cares. That dream is still within me, all human beings aspire to positive spiritual things, but Christianity doesn't work for me anymore. I am sorry to say this. If I die and face God one day, I will tell him all of this. The one as depicted in the Bible, according to all biblical rules will cast me away as one who had their faith uprooted and became "fallen away". I hope against hope, that if there is a God and I don't merely die and rot, that He is more loving then the Christian God. No blood sacrifices or hell demanded. A God of real love. Not of authoritarian control, and fear. Abusers rule by fear. What do you think hell is about?
One thing I noticed fellow deconverters saying, is that God in the Bible operates like a malignant narcissist/sociopath.
I prayed for an entire year that God "rescue" the faith or show Himself in some way to me. So these decisions were not made in haste. For those of faith, I do not mean to offend you, this is my own personal journey, I am not here to tell you what to believe or not to believe.
Honestly I've been far happier in leaving fundamentalist Christianity and it's not about intellectualism, it's about dealing with reality. I don't want the narrow world that is only 6,000 years old, I believe there are universes beyond this one. God did not speak to my struggles whatsoever. I know you mean well. It is scary, I spent some years having doubts and being too afraid to face them. Honestly being free of the fundamentalist created fear, and guilt, is freeing me in a way, that is going to be as important to my life as freeing myself from abusers.
I messed up book title suggested above, it is called "The Ends of the World" by Peter Brannen
Deletehttps://www.harpercollins.com/9780062364807/the-ends-of-the-world