Tuesday, December 20, 2022

A Great Article on Lack of Empathy in Abusers

 https://angry-alcoholics.blogspot.com/2019/09/lack-of-empathy-in-abusers-narcissists.html

One of the multiple of angry letters I wrote my own narcissistic mother was about how she had no empathy.  I wrote in this letter, "You have no empathy and don't care how people feel". She didn't. She's incapable of it. This is the letter that "disappeared" and she denied getting. 

This was a woman who made fun of a man who broke his back cutting branches from a tree, for asking for a straw as he laid in a hospital bed. There was no comfort or care when it came to illness. I believe my mother is at the extreme end of the NPD scale, she had an inability to feel fear, there was a lack of emotions there. There's dozens of articles on this blog where I talk about the incidents showing her total lack of empathy.

Abusers don't see things from your perspective. It's all about themselves. Many of us who came out of these abusive families, had false fantasies about how one day our abusers would "wake up" and see us and have concern for our feelings. We wrongly believed they thought like us, or the cold ice hearts would melt. It's never going to happen. They don't have the feelings or introspection, and don't care.  It doesn't matter what tragedies one faces, they simply don't care and most will exploit the troubles you do face, Sometimes facing that fact can be very hard, we have to realize they do not think or see the world the way we do. When they cry it's for show, when we cry and show feelings they usually are enraged especially if you are critcizing them or they exploit those emotions.

Facing the truth for many of us who went no contact isn't easy. Some make the mistake of imaging "hidden feelings" in the people with no empathy. Yes there are reserved people but in the case of these toxics the feelings simply aren't there. 

One question I do ask in any new relationships is if people do have empathy? It's a red flag to learn to watch for and learn to avoid those who don't have it.  I wish children in school were directly taught about empathy and the important role it serves in life and to look out for those who lack it.

Lise's article makes a lot of great points.

Most people who exhibit lack of empathy for you (as a character trait - and part of that character trait is an unusual amount of criticism of others) are usually going to display abusive behavior at some point too. In very rare circumstances, people who are totally overwhelmed like going through multiple tragedies and conflicts (a death of a parent, losing a business, in the hospital for a surgery, a child in a devastating car accident - all at once for instance) can display a lack of empathy because they are dealing with too many issues. However, if you see a lot of verbal abuse, while they are in the middle of their tragedies, it is a bad sign. 

People who are verbally abusive or hyper critical of you usually want to cut down your self esteem. That's usually a sign of the beginning of abuse. It usually escalates to emotional and psychological abuse later on, and can even escalate into physical abuse, threats, harassment, false imprisonment, coercive control, sometimes stalking and stealing, and even life threatening occurrences. Always remember that once abuse appears, it escalates. 

As an individual you won't be able to stop the escalation. Only law enforcement, the keeping of records with law enforcement so that they know where to look if you come up missing or dead, voicing clear boundaries, getting lawyers and domestic violence counselors involved, and restraining orders can stop the trajectory, and even then, an abuser will try to find work-arounds and loopholes. I talk about their work-arounds later in this section.

Remember those who have no empathy don't play by the same rules.

24 comments:

  1. Hi Peep. Good article and thanks for the reference.
    It always helps to reveal the personal stories as a way to show how it all works. And you do that.
    Wishing you a happy holiday!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Lise, Happy Holidays to you too. :) I agree it helps to hear people's personal stories too and examples of what lack of empathy looks like. Take care!

      Delete
  2. Hi Peeps,
    Merry Christmas to you and Mr. Peeps! I baked again this year for others, and am All Baked Out, taking it easy today.
    As for your mother's lack of empathy, I totally agree. Remember I was the one who saw her standing outside the Today show's window, back in the nineties, jumping up and down, holding a sign that read something to the effect of being in New York on a Major Shopping Spree after collecting Husband's Life Insurance! My jaw dropped, and I just couldn't understand how she couldn't see the crassness (spelling?) of that and how she wasn't the least bit embarrased by it. My second thought was how it reminded me of my mother, and how there had been "the rules for thee and the rules for me," in polite society, which were of course always worlds apart, and a given.
    More anecdotal things to say on this subject, but for now, just wanted to say that I find it remarkable and comforting that we would somehow find one another on this very subject so many years later, with the odds, and so many miles between us, against it.
    I appreciate you and your blog very much, Peeps.
    Chelle

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Chelle,

      Yeah I remember that discussion here. I wish I could see the video and know for a fact if it was her with the sign. I know she went to NYC right after my father died and said she was on the Today show via the window. I recall watching it back then. and asked my husband and he said he saw it too when we were reminscing. I don't remember much about the sign but there very well could have been one. Once I tried to go on Youtube to find old Today shows to see if I could find it again. I remember even the golden child was a bit outraged at the timing with all the shopping back then but never heard another peep about it. An aunt told me she bragged saying "I am now a rich woman" when they were together in a car, can't remember what year this was. Yeah it's too bad you were reminded of your mother. They follow "other rules" that's for sure. I'm glad we found each other Chelle too. Thanks so much. I did cook some turkey and parsnips and other veggies for dinner, kind of vegging out today with husband. Glad you are having a good holiday. Now they are much more stress free. Hope you have enjoyed the products of your baking.

      Delete
  3. Hi again Peeps,
    I'm pretty sure there was a sign, how else would I know since she wasn't being interviewed? I seem to recall some reactions (non verbal) to it from the hosts inside too. And as I said before, it was raining hard that day, and she was wearing a clear plastic pancho/raincoat and a matching umbrella. Also, when you asked me what she looked like, I said the one who played the witch on the Wizzard of Oz, to which you agreed she did look like Margaret Hamilton. That was what her face and hair was like, but she was taller and thinner. I really don't recall the date or year at all, but we got our satellie dish for xmas of '94 I'm pretty sure, so it would have been after that. I can't recall if it was pre OJ or not, but if I had to guess, I would say it was '95-'96. But it could have been 97-98, but I don't think so. All in all, if I were going to win a million dollars on it and could only pick one year, it would be '95. Did I win?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah there would have been a sign with no interview. It had to be 98/99 because my father died in late 1998. LOL there could be others like here out there. My mother did look like Margaret Hamilton, not too tall and thin though--more average sized. I did try to find old Today shows on video somewhere where they have the window but wasn't able to. I could narrow down the time enough. Thanks for trying to figure out the timing. I know this is look back so many years ago.

      Delete
    2. Hi Peeps,
      Tinking on this more, I think I must be mistaken on the year. Remember your husband recalled it was raining that day she was in the window? I looked at what the weather is as far as rain in NYC, so it seems according to that, that it would have been from April through September. I guess based on when your Dad passed away it would be '99 then? I recall she had on pants and a simple top, certainly not bundled up for cold temperatures. As I said, we watched the show through to 2000. It just seems unlikely there would be two of them, appearing in the Today show window.

      Delete
    3. HI I'll ask him if it was raining, it may have been. It could have been 99, father died in fall of 1998, however oddly I keep thinking it was only three weeks AFTER he died, not sure why brain is focused on three weeks. I know memories that long ago, it's hard to remember. She wore pants and a simple top a lot and don't remember it being super cold yet. She wouldn't have gone shopping until she dropped in majorly cold weather. Yeah seems like there'd only be one like that lol.

      Delete
  4. Hey Peeps,
    You're right that abusers don't see things from another's perspective. I use to tell my mother all the time that I always tried to place myself in the other persons shoes, something I didn't believe she did, and suggested if she would start, things would likely greatly improve for her with me and others. But she was not really looking for solutions, so that was wasted time and breath.
    I had a much lighter-hearted example of this type of thing present to me just the other day. A local kid, who had worked for me one day a couple weeks prior, came up looking for a certain leaf that makes a beautiful impression in the dough of a finished Tamali, a holiday favorite. I told him I didn't have any, but asked where my file was? He had taken it with him on the day he worked, as he wanted to get an early start on cutting the grass below the following day. But he never showed, didn't call or return the file. In the meantime, another man showed early one morning to do the job, but I had to give him the money and send him on the errand to buy another one. I explained this to this kid, and he couldn't have been more visibly disinterested, looking up into the trees and all about. I pointed this out, to which he basically said wasn't true. I knew I was in a circular conversation with a narcissist, so I changed the subject to, "Where were you anyway, why didn't you show up that day or since?" "Busy" he answered. "But how could you be busy when you left here in the afternoon to return early in the morning?" I asked. "I got a call that night," he said, "something better came along." While I had to give it to him for blatantly honest answers, I said, "I'm not going to berate you or bother any more on this subject, but as a person much older than you, I can tell you that there are only a couple of important things a person carries with them wherever they go, and that is their health, and their word." I then invited him to take that info with him, and do with it whatever he pleased.
    Just a local example I was reminded of.
    Chelle

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glad you told that kid what was what, he should have brought the file back. I wouldn't hire him again for anything since he's shown his untrustworthiness. At least that one was more honest with some answers but then may not care enough to show surface charm there's some narcissists like that. Yeah I remember conversations with my mother saying try to see things from other people's perspectives. it was wasted breathe, mine also delighted in the suffering of others which is a few notches up. She liked to see people in weakened states. Can understand why you tried with your mother too Chelle.

      Delete
  5. Hi Peeps,
    Well, that's disappointing that I felt so sure about things and had it wrong. Perhaps a good lesson in there, but I will say we had that dish until 2000 when we moved. I had visited my grgrandmoth in '96 shortly before she died, and had a big personal dilemna (spelling?) about whether to buy my mother a certain shirt I came across I knew she would have loved. I didn't buy her the shirt (had an iguana on it) and just bought the beautiful local hand-painted calendar for my grandmother. I could have sworn that sering that woman on the Today show played a part in my decision. That is why I guessed '95. Be that as it may, it doesn't change me being glad to have found you.
    Chelle

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey that makes sense. I know memories that old it can be hard to connect what exact year. Glad you got your grandmother the nice calendar. LOL There could have been another one, always hard to tell. I need to ask husband if he remembers her holding a sign. I'll do that and ask if he remembers weather and other stuff. Glad you found me too!

      Delete
  6. Hi Peeps,
    Yeah, my mother enjoyed seeing others suffer too, me especially (I think). Picking out a Mother's Day card was especially brutal. It's an odd position to be in, where it is obligatory for you to honor her on this day, yet none of the messages in those cards fit. Especially when you are a truth teller, as I had always been. I felt especially bad for my brother though, as his birthday fell just a few days boforehand in May. Before he got his birthday wish or message from her, he first had to throw flowers at her feet.
    On this last go around with her, after a ten year no contact, I pushed back some when she started spinning into her inevitable evil spiral. She attacked me out of no where, similar to how a snake might bite if accidentally preturbed. I told her this, and asked what her problem was? I asked if she had a bad relationship with her father? He died of luekemia while she was pregnant with me. She said she didn't, but that he was absent a lot. (He was a naval officer) Said her relationship with my grandmother was no picnic, that she was hard on her. To get to the point, I asked her how long she had felt this way, and she said since she was a young woman. And in trying to describe how she felt, she told me about the prose I had read her from Khalil Gibran, entitled My Friend. She said it was eerily right on the money. She recited the part about her clothes being a garmet she wore to hide her true self from my vision. She was of course speaking of the mask, but neither of us knew it. At least, I didn't. Perhaps I should have asked more questions earlier on. Those earlier years were pretty sketchy though, I don't think she ever slowed down enough for any kind of introspection. We moved alot too, and she was married 5 times.
    Sam Vaknin once described what it felt like to be a narcissist. He said it was like being alone in a boat on a vast sea. And then he sees someone there, clinging to a life presever, so he helps them into the boat. Not because he feels for them in any way, but because he can so he does. And then as this person tries to relate to him, they start having certain expectations, which invariably end in ultimatims, which he is not interested or equipped to handle. So he throws or invites them back in and waves a non-emotional goodbye.
    You were right about him, btw. He made a real ass out of himself over covid, telling all his followers that they had a duty to get vaxxed and that he had a right not to be killed by us. I haven't listened to him since. And the comments that insued from the other non vaxxed, echoed my feelings. As you said, us Acons tend to be les trusting. Guess the Narcissists are the opposite.
    Chelle

    ReplyDelete
  7. Wow with your mother being married 5 times, that says something. Yours talked a bit about her mother being hard on her? Probably just making excuses for her bad behavior. Mine was strange, you couldn't get a word out of her about memories or the past. It was strange. Her relationship with my grandmother, they kiss each other's butt but you could tell they didn't "like" each other. It was weird. I do think she was one of her golden children of course. Oh I hated buying Mother's Day cards, I tended to get one of those humorous ones rather then touchy-feely ones, but remember being a teenager staring at the card counter thinking none of these really say what I feel. I hated Mothers Day then too. Yeah they don't slow down, always busy busy busy, can't even sit down and think for a second. Mine never seemed to even sit or read or ponder anything. Yeah she told you about her mask there, definitely. I don't think mine ever read a poem in her life or a piece of literature outside of a Harlequin novel or cookbook. One simply couldn't discuss any ideas with her. That makes me sad looking back, that alone was a chasm beyond the rest of it all. Surprised Sam helped them in the boat. Maybe that's "regular" NPD while the worse ones would just watch someone drown from the start and laugh. That would be my mother. Agree about ultimatums, and rest, cousins got weird, any emotional expectations they seem offended by, like just expecting people to be "real". Yeah doesn't surprise me about your brother, better you're away from him. Wonder if he is still lining up. I was spared a lot I think being no contact by the time Covid rolled around. I learned to keep mouth shut about status, simply don't talk about IRL except to few I warned but yeah vaxx stuff was abused by all the narcissists. I think some gloried in being able to ban people from places, like they were "superior". I tend to think most narcissists lined up, they can't imagine anything "bad happening" to "them" like they are above it all. Of course the ones I dealt with never feared anything including serious illness. I'm sure most of my family lined up and if I had been around, I would have been banned as the "unvaxxed", most are in schools and jobs, where they would have insisted on the vaxx. Money always was most important to them. Am curious is the word getting out there that the vaxxes are harmful or have failed? I haven't had time to post on this yet, will later, but they have found proof they are decimating the immune system of those who took them.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Hi Peeps,
    Yes, on her saying my grandmother was hard on her, I pushed back on that one too. As all the pictures I saw suggested she was very pampered, not to mention my own childhood experiences living at my grandmother's (whenever she was between marriages) which was a literal dream come true. The woman had a heater on in the bathroom for me to bathe and get ready for school. She was then waiting in the kitchen for me with a cup of hot chocolate and a wonderful breakfast made. And while I ate that, she made my lunch. Laura Scutter's potato chips, homemade fried chicken or tuna sandwich, sliced apples and cheese, and something hot or cold in a thermos. And we always had dinner precisely at 6:00 p.m. every evening. All her gifts were the most thoughtful and meaningful to me, my leather ice skates when I was in the eighth grade, my beautiful multi-colored Danskin (tie dyed look) for gymnastics. A Timex ladies wrist watch when I turned 13. And she made me the most beautiful graduation dress I have ever seen, had my hair cut too, with surfer's bangs. My mother always tried to pit us against our grandmother, saying she was old-fashioned and wasn't with it and didn't like anyone to have any fun. My experience was so opposite this. After I pushed back with these types of stories, she said, "Yeah, you're right, it was a piece of cake." Don't know it was meant to be derogatory (probably) or if it was an admission.
    She and my brother are both deceased now.
    Chelle continuing ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Your mother probably was the golden child. My grandmother had two golden children, my mother the oldest and the youngest uncle. Still remember her yelling at Aunt Scapegoat for eating potato chips while making endless fried bologna sandwiches for my youngest uncle from that family, as he went to endless baseball games. He never had to clean anything, the other brother was always mowing the lawn.
      Wow your grandmother sounds like she was nice to you. Mine was stingy, would barely feed me calling me fat. I couldn't even get an egg out of that woman or a sandwich when I wanted one, when I used to go visit, I would take my own food as a kid or if I had a car and was driving, knew I'd have to drive into town to get anything to eat or go down to my aunt's house. My grandmother hid my picture on her wall too. Glad you got good treatment from your grandmother.
      Curious here was your grandmother more normal not a NPD? I suppose it is possible especially with those thoughtful gifts. That's too bad your mother said those mean things about your grandmother. The dynamics between the two I dealt with, they'd back bite each other, especially my grandmother, she even complained to me about stuff my mother did, but in person with mother, she never would criticize her and I was thrown under the bus multiple times. My grandmother definitely had same traits as my mother, though I wouldn't say she was as severe, but they were there.
      Could your grandmother be nice to you to get back at your mother or do you think she was a more normal person?

      Delete
    2. Hi Peeps,
      Yes, my grandmother was a normal person, no NPD, and she was a counter balance in my life for all the confusion and chaos there was around my mother. In fact, it was obvious that she was always trying to make up or straighten out my mother's deeds. She was truly a Godsend in my life. It's funny that I knew that at 4 years old, the first time my grandmother touched me. I remember thinking, "this feels really different, it feels right." I say this because my grandmother gave me some photographs of myself, my brother, sister, and my mother, all at that same age. I was in an over-sized pair of flip flops, and my grandmother was sitting in a planter, in her beautiful back yard (she and my grandfather had worked at it) and she had me standing in front of her in her embrace. I recalled my feelings that day, wondering who this wonderful woman was, and how it was I knew I could trust her. So, I asked my mother about it? This was on that last go-around when I was pushing back and asking questions. She said it was the first time I had met my grandmother. (I had sent these very photos to her, for xmas, since she said she didn't have any, of any of us, at that age. I asked why I hadn't met her before that? Well, she and my grandmother weren't getting along after her divorce from my father, and in the wake of her father's death. She said she feared my grandmother trying to take me away from her, like she had my brother. It was true, my grandmother had my brother, in the wake of her divorce from his father and her mariage to mine. I had photos of that too, of my father holding my brother at 18 months before I was born. My mother would have been 17 going on 18 in that photo. So I can see why my grandmother had him, she was an unmarried minor. And this is the sort of thing I would have to dig through to find the truth. Her version implying my grandmother was a threat and liked to take her childred away, and the reality of the situation. But the fact she had been married to my father, and still hadn't seen me in 4 years, didn't make sense. So I asked what the problem was? Between her version, and the reality, I surmised that she had gone after my grandmother for her house after my grandfather passed away. She so much as admitted it, when she blamed it on her aunt (his sister) saying it was she who thought she should have the house, not her. (She was of course thinking of my grandmother, and where would she live?) This would become a theme thereafter, she, my brother and sister, would circle like vulchers in the wake of someone passing. Not a nice thing to say about ones family I know, and no doubt somehow refects poorly on me then, but it is the reality. My grandmother even told me on my visit to her before she died, to "get back here in a hurry if he anything happens to me, there'll be nothing left if you don't." She wanted me to have her Eastern Star ring.
      Chelle

      Delete
    3. P.S. Peeps,
      My train of thought was interrupted by a kid who came to work in a deluge of rain (don't see that often) but wanted to say I'm sorry you didn't have any repite from your grandmother. That would have been important to you. I know the couple of people who offered me a hand and some affirmation made a huge difference. It didn't make the reinjury any less difficult on the back end though, as they were gone by then. But they, and my good memories of them, still live on inside me today.
      Chelle

      Delete
    4. Thanks Chelle I appreciate it. I did have some from the good aunt when young. My grandmother was like my mother. I had a weird moment with grandmother, she was dying and I said, love you...and she slammed the phone down. It was a strange moment. She once said to me, ****** is my favorite grandchild right to me. I only have good memories with that one aunt, there's a few with Aunt Scapegoat when I was young but she was turned against me too. Cousins there's some fun memories when we were kids and siblings but one reason all the relationships are over today, is there were no good memories anymore to be had.

      Delete
  9. Chelle continuing ...
    My mother never read anything useful or meaningful either, but she always had a novel going. Besides this, she was always quoting Ayn Rand. I caught on based on other stories you have told, that your mother was likely intimidated by you and your avid reading and learning. Probably knew she was completely outmatched, so she just never went there. To say something positive about my upbringing with my mother, we learned a lot about music, in that she had a huge wall of all the latest albumns, which were always playing in the background. She had a good grasp on popular music and excellant musicians of the time.
    As for the Golden Child/ Scapegoat dynamic, I tried to figure that one out when I was learning about narcissism. I even talked to my brother about it, to see if he thought she was harder on me than him? I'll never forget those wide eyes as he shook his head no. I realized that in her case the pattern was different. She was an only child and had imaginary playmates. If she snatched a cube of butter off the table "Sissy did it". If it was something good, "Honey did it." I think she annointed herself the Golden Child, and we kids were her siblings, her personal army, which she used to get back at her own mother, who was "The Mother" figure. And as her personal army, we were of course expected to tow the line.
    Yeah, my mother being married so many times was not ideal, but also seemed to play into this same dynamic, of us being her "sole" property. She would always split up wth whichever husband, right before the baby was born. She said she finalzed the divorce with my father on a Friday and had me the following Monday. So my father only formed a bond with my brother before me, and not me. That was awkward, when he came to my brother's birthday party and not mine. I was five, he was turning nine. I developed ties to my sister's father, who was also exited right before she had her. So my sister had no such ties with her own father either. And we, as children, were pitted against one another, so we would not rally and bond, I'm thinking. I know because the couple times we got out of her sphere, we got along great. Then, once back in, it would all get erased. The constant moving meant that there was no great social safety net either. Constant uprooting, no solid foundation being formed.
    Agree about the narcs lining up, not thinking anything would dare happen to them. I thought this about Fauci, if he really did get vaxed.
    Chelle

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What kind of novels did your mother read? Mine just read the romance ones. I read a few was bored by age 14 by them. Weird your mother was into Ayn Rand but mine loved the Tea Party politics and Republican party. [even if I said I hated both parties to her, that was not welcomed] My mother got angry when teachers told her I was gifted and I agree there was intimidation there. She would avoid any intellectual topics or discussion of ideas simply wasn't done. All discussions [well few there were] about people or things or shopping.

      I'm glad you got to learn a lot about music. I knew barely anything until I met the millionaire now ex friend in college and her extensive music collection.

      Glad you got some cultural education. As I have written mine could cook and we did get a lot of Christmas presents.

      Oh I did the same thing as you tried to talk about narcissism and golden child stuff with brother and sister. oh brother admitted oh yes my sister was the favorite, and golden child, he backed that up but he would tell me oh you have to accept them the way they are and just put up with it. He wasn't abused to degree I was.
      I wonder how "only" child dynamics work here, funny she could scapegoat lol her imaginary friends. Practicing I guess. Mine was the "oldest child" and was the one to escape the farm and get/marry into some money so she was always viewed as this successful person who had all the answers in her family.
      So your mother would divorce right before having these men's babies, didn't she fear economic repercussions, yeah that is weird. Maybe she was using them consciously for sperm donors, he served his role and she was ditching them.
      Yeah without mother around sure you got a long a lot better. They ruin relationships. I hope your sister's father was nice to you a bit. I was moved too much too, it brings so much instability. I should have stayed put as an adult too. I think Fauci probably got saline, don't think they are going to take the "depopulator" themselves. Fauci I think was one who knew the real score.

      Delete
  10. Hey Peeps,
    That part about your grandmother and mother kissing each other's butt, but not "liking" one another is something my mother said outright to me on this last stint. She said, "I don't LIKE her," referring to my sister, whom I was about to speak with. "Don't get me wrong," she said, "I LOVE her, of course I do, but I don't LIKE her, you know what I mean?" I took it with a grain of salt at the time, chalked it up to just another manipulation, trying to head any possible relationship off between us, at the pass. Here's a doozy of a poem/prose on this subject, by you know who!
    Entitled, The Sleep-Walkers
    'In the town where I was born lived a woman and her daughter, who walked in their sleep.
    One night, while silence enfolded the world, the woman and her daughter, walking, yet asleep, met in their mist-veiled garden.
    And the mother spoke, and she said: "At last, at last, my enemy! You by whom my youth was destroyed--who have built up your life on the ruins of mine! Would I could kill you!"
    And the daughter spoke, and she said: "O hateful woman, selfish and old! Who stand between my freer self and me! Who would have my life an echo of your own faded life! Would you were dead!"
    At that moment a cock crew, and both women awoke. The mother said gently, "Is that you, darling?" And the daughter answered gently, "Yes dear."

    ReplyDelete
  11. Yeah my grandmother would complain behind the scenes but seriously when they were together it was united front time and I was chopped liver. I think they feared each other if that makes sense. They were both a lot alike.

    Yeah weird how your mother saying I don't like your sister, sounds like more gameplaying. I heard constant complaints about my brother and how horrible he was from both grandmother and mother. That was one weird thing how much my grandmother hated my brother, because once he was visiting when he was 12, I was there too, my parents gone on some trip and he was throwing some fit, and went on for hours because she said no to him doing or getting something, can't remember what it was.
    Wow with that poem. It's always weird to me when I see all these chummy mothers and daughters who love each other on Facebook, can't even imagine what that is like. That poem does say some of the usual jealousy and stuff like that they talk about in books. Maybe it's the "hidden thoughts" between the two.

    Seems to point to the double-facedness of some of the relationships. I never had kids but always thought if I had a daughter somehow she would end up neat, mean and skinny and would get some STEM career where she would make a lot of money and be embarrassed by me for being fat. How could someone rebel against a writer and an artist into punk/goth music/ and one who was a very independent thinker? That's probably with my luck what I would have gotten. LOL Or maybe not, it's weird to think about. I know my ovaries dried up over the possibilities of replicating a copy of my mother. I suppose if the relationship works it can be a loving one, but we certainly didn't luck out that way.

    My grandmother was nice to babies but once a kid hit 2 years old, it's like the kid didn't matter anymore. It was kind of weird, that's one thing I remember that was so strange.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I agree Fauci got the "S"aline.

    ReplyDelete