Sunday, August 21, 2016

Mrs. Curses: The Spiritual Abuser

Profile of a Spiritual Abuser

I got caught up in being spiritually abused. It was very painful. I think finally I can talk about it now a little bit. Queen Spider religiously abused me for years with her enforced Catholicism and pretend piety, well another religious abuser came in my life.  I will call her "Mrs. Curses". she was an online friend of many years who got interested in "deliverance work".

Yes it's taken me time to recover from this. I'll be honest, I have dealt with so many wicked people in a very short period of time, I am tired. There's been too many scary betrayals in a short period of time. In real life, I am not socializing very much. Yeah if you deal with enough doozies, you wonder is it "me"?  I don't know maybe it's the "clean-out"taking a long time. 

I could write an entire novel about all these people. Outside some good friends and my husband, my people picker became very broken. Until I can fix it, I am being wary of anyone new. Finding out how many narcissists surrounded me in my life has been a very scary journey. It has hurt a lot. It doesn't escape my notice, this is someone else I cut off at the SAME time I was cutting off other narcissistic family members. 

This spiritual abuser did a number on me as the catfish. This happened a few years ago. I cut her off just some months after going no contact with the main narcissists in my family.  What was ironic about the catfish, is she mirrored me telling me she had gone through the same type of abuse, saying someone in a charismatic church in her real life had served as a false mentor from hell itself. Around the time I cut off "Mrs. Curses", then entered the would be catfish.

I met this online older Christian friend some years earlier. [2002?].  I was newly saved when I found her online Christian writings and started writing her. We shared many interests, she was interested in the same politics and was like me in questioning the false doctrine in churches.  She seemed like a nice person. We could talk about intellectual and religious topics for hours. We did some phone Bible study and prayer together too. I emailed her and had other correspondence with her for 10 plus years without a problem. It was a supportive long distance friendship.  We just emailed for many years and phone contact came in later.  In many ways she was kind, helpful and thoughtful during those years giving me comfort and sharing prayers while I was sick but then things turned "WEIRD", she started telling me I had been cursed. 

We disagreed about this but under severe health challenges and the extreme weight I was not eating for I gave her theories too much attention instead of telling her to shush up about curse topics.  Hey I had read the Stephen King book "Thinner" too, though my life was going the opposite way!  I know part of me wondered if she was "right". Why had my life gone so badly? Why was I so poor? Why had I gone almost deaf? Why did I reach a weight that only 1 in 5 million people had reached? I was vulnerable too, back then, I was very sick. I was getting a leg infection almost every 6 weeks instead of a few times a year. Fear of death ruled rampant, and whose more vulnerable to fake religious healers and charlatans then the desperate?  Also when things got really weird, is after I moved here, and gotten lonely for Christian fellowship. This was after losing my old church and not having found another and during the time I was in the impersonal IFB I left later.  No money ever changed hands, she knew I was broke. Maybe the supply is enough for a few.

Back then around 2009 the doctors told me I may need oxygen soon. I was given 18 months to live from the cardiomyopathy alone. One doctor back then also had a poor bedside manner and told me, I was going to die soon of my cardiomyopathy. She offered no way out but to tell me, "You are going to be dead very soon, you need to start making arrangements'". The next day, I demanded physical therapy and worked my way out from severe cardiac problems which I still have but became far more under control. I think this is around the time Mrs. Curses started working on me. She wasn't bringing out the crazy curses talk yet but talking about finding healing in the Lord, bible studies, and nice neutral sounding topics. She offered me care and concern like a loving friend.

I told her I doubted her theology on curses, but she told me she did "deliverance" work with other people, and I knowing very little bit about deliverance, thought "What harm will more prayer do?" so I said, "Okay you can help me with deliverance".  She told me she had experience helping abused people heal. That was one the biggest mistakes of my life. Spiritually, I was letting someone else step in to be "mediator" between me and God. I do not believe in deliverance ministries today, make sure you leave all the priests behind for the true gospel of grace. In the beginning, some of the prayers made sense, the "deliverance" devolved into fault-finding and unknown sins. I kept some boundaries up, when she got nosy, but the idea of deliverance is like confession. I will shout to people worldwide, if they promise deliverance RUN. The charismatic and pente flavored churches are into this stuff but even some of the independent baptists will promote the underlying ideas.

Her main message to me then mutated into this: that my life was in ruins and God was not healing and blessing me, because I was a very wicked person and was not serving God or obeying His commandments in the right way. I was not giving myself over to the deliverance and trusting God. 

I live a dull life, no drinking, drugs, or cheating, I'm not hanging out in bars or gambling--outside of buying a few occasional desperate Lotto tickets but supposedly my long list of sins, had destroyed my life. Also supposedly if I became "sin-free" and fully delivered from the affects of my abuse, then I would have healing for my health problems.

What I find interesting now, is we both together condemned the prosperity gospel but she was giving me another version of it. The me of today warns stay away from those who claim God will bring blessings in this life or that your sins bring you troubles in this world. Jesus said, we would have tribulations. Those who preach guaranteed miracles, even in more subtle ways are deceivers. This theology is ALL over the churches now, and many push it in a non-direct fashion. Good Christian means "good life", Bad Christian or sinner means "bad life". The Bible doesn't teach this. There is a reason I don't go to church anymore. I am even freeing myself STILL of IFB legalisms since leaving my last independent fundamentalist baptist church. Am I an ex-fundamentalist now? I'm not sure. Some would call my belief in the bible to be that, but all labels seem to be limited. I'm a Christian but analyzing quite a bit. God after all is Who showed me the doorway out away from abuse.

One thing she was right about, was that my family had "cursed" me. Perhaps not in the literal sense but all ACONs discover as narcissists sabotage us especially as victims, we are started off with many "CURSES".  Many narcissistic and sociopathic parents curse us openly. I was told I was "no good", would end up being behind the "shopping cart", and "under the underpass" and then my parents made sure to make sure all these things were carried out to the best of their ability. Yesterday I went to an inner city soup kitchen to eat to cover a delay on getting food, while my family travels to Europe and eats out several times a day, they made sure to set things up for me so poverty would come.

So was there a curse of sorts there, sure, but not in the way Mrs. Curses told me. My health was neglected for today's damaged lungs and damaged "lipo-lymphedema" body.  She did help me opening my eyes to my completely evil family, but then she treated me the same way they did too. I wasn't good enough for her, and was not a valuable friend, I was just a someone to be "fixed". I was not a human being to her. I was a "thing", an "object". She probably is Cluster B herself.  This is why I warn on this blog about how ACONs need to avoid project friends and those who see you as a "fix it project" so adamantly. 

She could have "gotten in" more and done a lot more damage but I kept having dreams about her, dreams where I felt WARNED.  I also knew about cults and spiritually abusive churches and was never the type to obey pastors and do what they told me. I laugh thinking of the time she told me I had the spirit of rebellion near the end. Her mask of nice friendship had slipped by then. 

 I did meet her once in person, our visit went okay, but my concerns about her grew especially feeling certain vibes from her that remained under cover.  Maybe I learned grey rocking too well. There was times I humored her to keep the peace. She didn't know it. I never applied her legalistic rules to my life, some of those were impossible like the fasting. She lived too far away to control me, but she still wiggled into my head way too much. The me of today chooses to be alone rather then around toxic people but being even sicker back then, and housebound, I was taking all comers. In the early stages of this I thought she cared. She too like the catfish told me, she had been a severe abuse victim, bringing my empathy into play. 

I was lonely, she seemed nice, but I let someone very dangerous to my spiritual and mental well-being in the door. She kept hounding on curses, to the point I got scared for her mental health, and thought to be a good friend, I should try and gently lead her away from legalistic theology that focused on Satan and demons to the point they were more in charge then God. I should have worked on protecting myself first.

During the final stages, she called my house telling me a "death curse" had been sent to me.  That's the day I should have cut her off. I remember laughing and saying "God is stronger then that, and I may die of my own body anyway" but inside she made me feel afraid and on edge. I finally found myself wondering if this person was really my enemy. They were. When I cut her off, she had called me to tell me one of my family members had sent me a "death curse". I don't doubt that one in the metaphorical sense, surely Queen Spider has cursed my very name for being the one that got away but I think she used my painful time of going no contact for more pain and to drive the screws in deeper.

 Things got weirder and weirder and in this case I just did a full cut off. No NC letters, nothing. She may see this, she knew of my blog, but I don't care anymore. I hope she has gotten help, and has left the god of legalisms, curses and demons being in charge behind. I cared about her for years but had to face the facts this never was a real friendship. I was too embarrassed to write about this subject though I have mentioned it a few times. I was embarrassed to even admit I allowed someone like this in my life. Sometimes I fear writing about so many relationships gone bad, some will think something is seriously wrong with me instead. I plan to cover these issues very soon with a therapist. My trust of other people has vaporized in one giant going no contact cloud. It frightens me how bad things got with a variety of people. One conspiracy-minded friend even once asked me if I was being gang-stalked or something. I don't want to go to more weirdo places, I just want to deal with the facts. The facts was I had to get the hell away from a LOT of people. 

She would write me things like this to give you an example of what I was dealing with. She wrote me when I told her the deliverance was crossing too much boundaries and I was done with it. I told her theologically she was trying to grant herself "priestly powers" in the life of believers. She wasn't too happy with this statement. So this paragraph was from the response I got:

"Deliverance is for the desperate. Only those desperate enough to do what God tells them to do qualify for this miracle. If you are convinced you are doing what God requires of you then I'm not going to say anything about it. The Bible says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Fasting and praying is how we examine ourselves. If you knew me at all, you would know how often I do this".

How strong can I put this? Be EXTREMELY careful as an abuse victim or ACON in seeking religious help for your feelings of loneliness, depression or sadness. In today's modern churches, which Smakintosh is doing a good job warning about ,even telling a church, "I was abused" is a big no-no. It opens the door to the wolves to come and eat you and there's plenty of them. I was LC during time in my church in my rural community so it was not an issue and in the last one I never mentioned abuse or narcissism. However telling the most recent church I was estranged from my family for religious reasons was enough to earn me pariah status.  The wicked churches of today are more likely to enable the abusers. Just look how so many of them coddle sex abusers. Queen Spider is seen as a "holy Catholic woman". 

Mrs. Curses was far more legalistic then me, about music, eating and other details. Her list of life rules was too intense. Her "God" seemed easily angered and ready to throw one over the side of the boat for the smallest transgression. Her own life was more stable then mine, well what I knew long distance and seeing photographs, she had children and a husband, a home and the husband worked. But even then, my seeing her in the earlier stages as someone to emulate or as a mentor, was a giant mistake. This idea of not feeling secure in myself left me vulnerable to religious abuse. People who join cults often have been abused.

I would disagree with her telling her the bible says "No curses come undeserved" Proverbs 26:2 but she focused on my imperfections more and more and me becoming a better Christian. As I was becoming educated about narcissists and sociopaths, I find myself wondering about her more too. She was never wrong. She was always right. It was not adding up to a pretty picture.

She would tell me I was wicked for not doing certain things fast enough and if I listened to some old music, I would allow demons into my life. The me of today, now asks, "Why did I let this person put themselves as judge and jury over me?" but I am realizing because of my upbringing, I was left vulnerable. Here too I put up with way too much garbage. I am forming boundaries that should have been formed in childhood. This is a lot of personal work.

  Many people who get taken in by cults or spiritual abusers do end up with a feeling of humiliation and embarrassment. I was too embarrassed to write about this until now. Hopefully this will help someone as this is one I post with some hesitation.  At least I was disagreeing and questioning her along the way. I shudder to think of anyone who may come completely under her sway. My own relationship with God and knowledge of scripture helped show me the way out. My healing from being abused by narcissistic parents also helped. I went no contact with her, the same as with my family.

If someone becomes a Christian, while there are true mentors out there, there are people with personality disorders and other problems in the churches. ACONS can be very vulnerable to spiritual abuse.

Profile of A Spiritual Abuser By Pam Witzemann

I am a Christian and my experience with spiritual abuse is in the Christian context. However, spiritual abuse is not limited to Christianity. There are abusers in every faith, religion, and philosophy. Where ever human beings gather, there will be, at least, one abusive person. Spiritual abuse is differentiated from other abuse only by the use of God and the abused’s faith in God being used as a manipulative tool. All abusers want power and control over others and spiritual abusers are no different. This power over others can be used to carry out all kinds of evil and is at the root of the terrorism we experience today. It isn’t the philosophy that does the evil but the power hungry abusive men who lead them. It is impossible to clear all faith organizations of spiritual abusers but there are ways to spot them and follow a course of action in protecting one’s self from them. The following is a profile of those who spiritually abuse.

A spiritual abuser often appears almost angelic. They seem to have their lives and their families in perfect order. They are often popular and will have a following. Sometimes, they are leaders in the church but often, they are lay persons who use the church as a place to build a reputation and a following. They usually have few close friends but the closer one is to them, the more they must maintain control over that person. A spiritual abuser mistakes admiration as love and will do anything to protect and maintain their source of admiration. When they speak of “protecting their testimony” they aren’t talking about the testimony of how Christ is working in their life, they are speaking of their image in the community. The public image they create is highly important in their quest for and obtaining of admiration.

It is easy to feel inferior around someone who appears to be a near perfect Christian. An abuser works hard to engender such feelings of less than and is diligent to maintain them. They are expert in finding the weaknesses of others and seek control over them by pointing out the differences between their victim and themselves. They will offer themselves as a source of advice in overcoming whatever they define as missing in the person they are seeking to control. They will constantly point to themselves as successful in comparison to most others. A spiritual abuser won’t tolerate anyone close to them who does not cow-tow to their point of view. They will also seek to destroy the reputation of anyone who dares to criticize anything about them. To do so is to threaten the false image they have of themselves and portray to the world. Threatening an abuser’s false image will put the person who they once desired to control in danger while the easiest way to remove one’s self from under their spell, is to refuse to give them their needed admiration. If they can perceive no personal benefit to themselves in maintaining a relationship, then they have no use for that person and in their mind, they simply cease to exist.

It may be more difficult to first recognize a member of clergy as a spiritual abuser. Churches expect near perfection in their pastors and ministers and since these people are in a fish bowl, they often feel forced to live under a certain amount of pretence in fulfilling what is expected of them. However, a leadership role in a church is a perfect seat of power for a spiritually abusive person. They have the pulpit as an aid in maintaining control over others and it isn’t uncommon for them to criticize those who see through them or simply disagree with them over some matter from the pulpit. Sometimes, very personal information is shared in this manner. If you are the one who’s personal problem is being announced before the congregation, it doesn’t matter if no one knows who the pastor is talking about. The threat is made clear and in a very public and authoritative way. These kind of preachers will always point out sins but seldom point to Christ as the cure. Instead, they will create and teach rules for their congregations to live by. People who are constantly focused on their short-comings and struggling to maintain rules that often make them stand out in the larger world, are downcast and easy to control. This is when the spiritual abuser steps in between God and the people in his congregation. He takes the place of mediator and bars the way to God for those who don’t comply with his standards. The abuse may go no further than this or it may become more sinister as a means of supplying victims for sexual abuse. They may also use their power to gain monetary wealth from the people they rule over. In the extreme, cults are formed around these kind of leaders. Once completely cut off from the outside world, followers have been led to killing themselves and even murder.

A spiritual abuser is happiest when his/her following offer so much admiration that it borders on worship. They rejoice in being able to control what “their people” wear, watch, listen to, and even eat. They leave no room for the direction of God in others but insist that they themselves be the source of spiritual enlightenment. One sure way to detect these persons is by their attitude toward God. A true believer will have a healthy respect for God and be fearful of crossing God’s boundaries. Spiritual abusers will talk a lot about God but will live their lives by their own pleasure. Their convictions will change with the situation and the person that they desire to control. A true spiritual abuser sees themselves as God and persons who truly believe as foolish and as marks.

As with preventing all abuse, I believe it is important to set boundaries that will protect us from falling under the control of a spiritual abuser. I begin by not expecting out of any human being or group of human beings, what only God can give. I look to God to solve my problems and not the church or leaders in the church. I also refuse to give anyone the power to speak for God in my life. I can pray, I can read the Bible, I can think and I can make my own spiritual decisions. No one else knows God’s plan for my life. That is between me and God. When someone attempts to spiritually abuse me, I speak out against it and remove myself from their presence. These simple boundaries make it impossible for a spiritual abuser to take control of my life. I’ve found that they will seldom persist and will move on.

I am a Christian and I can speak for no other faith but my own. There is a common misconception that when people believe in, Jesus they receive morality. Jesus instead, offers eternal life to those who accept Him by faith. One isn’t immediately transformed into a perfect person. Both believers and nonbelievers often expect more of Christians than they are equipped to give. Christians are just people who believe in Jesus and struggle with the same problems in life that everyone struggles with. If I keep this in mind, I’m not surprised when someone who calls themselves Christian does something that is unchristian. This differs from spiritual abuse as it isn’t wrong-doing for the sake of control. Some well meaning individuals may teach a twisted understanding of a portion of scripture because they have been taught it that way. They may also behave in an unbecoming manner as the faith has been modeled to them wrongly. They too are victims of spiritual abuse and usually, can be corrected and will want to change in order to please God. A true spiritual abuser cares nothing about pleasing God but uses Him as he uses all others, for his own purposes. Spiritual abusers like to think of themselves as gods but they are just frail humans like the rest of us. They can be spotted and it is possible to protect one’s self from them. I always check what I am taught by the Bible and I take time for my own personal study of scripture. I also know that Jesus is my mediator to God and I need no other. I’ve found this the best prevention in protecting myself from manipulative teaching and control by spiritual abusers.

Pam Witzemann

2018--Update to this one: I am no longer a Christian. While dealing with this person was very painful and a nightmare, in one way, they did me a favor. They got me to wake up about an oppressive religion and I got out. No more praying for deliverance, or waiting for the day I would be "good" enough. I can live today being me.


  1. Sometimes it takes awhile before you see that the person in which you rested so much belief was, in the end, not what you thought they were. Or they veered off into a totally different area, one that you didn't want to go, and hence, the pushback. I watched it all from afar, but when the "curses quotient" increased exponentially, I figured that you were going to break things off at some point. It's too bad to see people get wrapped up in that kind of stuff, like the Skipper did on "Gilligan's Island" -- remember how he'd freak out over the tiki statue in his hut, thinking it had led him and his fellow castaways to an undeserved fate on the island? At least it didn't go like that for you.

    1. Yes Mr. Peep, it took awhile to learn who she really was. What is scary is this "friendship" was started off slow, and that's the usual way to do it, and then all of a sudden the person goes "feral". Yes I told you that I was uncomfortable as soon as the "curses" talk began. It was a disappointment. Her own life seemed pretty "curse free" outside one son with challenges and her claims of childhood abuse, you know able to pay her bills, children, grandchild, so why the obsession? It was just like Skipper and the tiki statue in his hut, Christianity in her version mutuated into another form of "witchcraft". The charismatics seem to specialize in that with their prayers or "spells" against curses and claiming "territories". At least she didn't believe in speaking in tongues--I think.

  2. I would imagine the level of vulnerability one has to acquire to have faith in god also makes you vulnerable to the vermin that use gods word for profit and mischief.

    1. I agree, faith can make you vulnerable. Sadly there's so many wolves out there using it for profit and mischief. In this case she got no profit, but perhaps it was exciting just to mess around with a person I don't know. A lot of the personality disordered, use religion as a cover for evil too. Many false preachers present a false Christianity, the one Smakintosh is addressing a lot recently where there is overt enabling of the evil. What scares me is I know this person did "deliverance" with others where they were right there by her side. Scary. I'm a questioner too. Sometimes I am suspicious of someone and say nothing for some time and did that here. I grey rocked in too many areas of my life while LC. She seemed fine for a long time too.

  3. Don't feel embarrassed. People are crazy! You just put yourself out there a lot, and are vulnerable and polite.People are a lot like animals. They smell fear and vulnerability. I'm starting to think very few people rise above this.
    I also think people are a bit more crazy today. We have so much more information and ways to entertain ourselves. Deliverance may have been her form of entertainment.
    Don't beat yourself up. You are still building your foundation. Just take it slower.
    I have few people in my life becuase I know I'm vulnerable and I don't have the energy for the drama.It's OK. to have only a few friends. All those people you think have all these close families or friends may not in reality have that. It just might seem that way. I used to think I was so beneath all my friends and now I realize how screwed up so many of them were.
    If you believe in God rely on him and the people close to you. Trust others will show up when you need them but don't go looking. Which I know is harder said than done. People get lonely.Our societies cohesion has been broken too.So that can add to the adrift feeling as well as being an acon.
    I used to think everything was my fault ( and sometimes still fall back into that). Then I went to realizing a lot of it was other people. People are crazy! I've got my craziness too. But don't turn it in on yourself. Be kind to you.

    1. Thanks anon for telling me not to feel embarrassed. You are right people are crazy. I agree about the being vulnerable and polite--probably not so much now, after enough of these experiences. I've gone inward and am far more quiet. I am not projecting much energy outward anymore but don't have it.

      I think many of them smell prey and go for it. Oh I definitely agree with you that people are more crazy. The changes in the last 10 years especially have been huge. I thought it was my move that did it, and I moved to this area of closed down people but friends in my old town have told me my old place is becoming drug central, all I had to do is go look at the Facebook page of the newspaper my husband worked at well before the last newspaper he commuted to, and the small town has turned into heroin/home invasion/other drugs central.

      Those nice silent generation people I was friends with many of them died, and the new generations with no secure employment and family life are turning to drugs and crime. I agree I am still building the foundation.

      Understand you keeping fewer people in your life being vulnerable. I wonder about the closeness of relationships presented on Facebook, something seems weird to me about people taking pictures of hugging each other and putting it up for others to see. The real stuff isn't visible. One of my best friends is NOT the huggy type, she isn't going to do a selfie grinning as big as she can with us hugging each other for me to post on Facebook, LOL


    2. Wow, when you wrote, "I used to think I was so beneath all my friends and now I realize how screwed up so many of them were", I have felt the same. I even got judged by a ex-friend who lives off her family, think about that one. I am trying to keep my own bills and adult life going on the end of the chasm, and someone basically "living at home" into their very late middle age is calling me a "loser". So yeah I am there with you too.

      I agree about relying on God. I am not looking anymore, people can show up now. LOL I did things when younger like chase after people. Well the family stuff made that obvious though, while they threw me away they were just keeping me around enough to keep track of me.

      I have told my husband, I am not going to put much work into trying to get a social life here anymore. I still go to activities I want to but it's a brick wall I don't want to bang my head on. With my health the energy is not there anymore. I worry about my husband having so few friends all far away too but he says he is too busy anyhow...a lot of time we are busy just trying to survive. We went to the food co-op yesterday etc.

      I think our society's cohesion is being broken too. My narc family is breaking up. That much is obvious. It would have happened irregardless. I read that one book Bowling Alone and have posted on things like that one article from the Atlantic talking about how poor whites in America are experiencing the "Lonely Poverty"

      Thanks I struggle with thinking things are my fault too, even with this, this was this woman's decision to go off the rails. I think if anything I stretched things too long trying to humor her, or help her, or hoping to return to the earlier friendship. LOL I know we have our own craziness too. Some craziness I can't handle. Agree about being kind to ourselves.

  4. Your false religious friend made some predictions of your curse like my adopted narc mother did to me. When bad things happened to me, my adopted narc mother gloated. I think that lady did too. I think she Munchhausen by proxy syndrome that lead her to target you and kept contacting you for years.

    I think you kept in touch with her longer because your mentality was different before you went NC. Toxic false Christians and religious people of other sects usually target new Christians or those who are not well off. It sounds like that you were still in touch with your narc family, and that your newfound Christianity and inability to work made you a target of that evil predator. She is a very dangerous woman. I wonder if she has children whom she could abuse and maybe she knows the catfisher you mentioned in other blog or might be the same person behind that catfisher's social media profile.

    She sounds like a rich lady who needed projects to control and abuse. She might be bored with her life that she needed some poor people to tell her what it is like to be poor and always worrying about money. Her ways of trying to control you is an example of her classism and snobbishness. She thought she could do better than you and that you will never do better. I think she's a snob.

    I had several controlling older women who tried to tell me what to say, how to control my voice, what to think, how I should feel about certain things, how I should dress or wear my hair. When a woman sent a letter telling me that I was too angry like her relatives and she would stop helping me until I get help for my anger or something like that, I was angry. Her last question was, "Would you like to work on your anger for me?" I cut her off. Another older lady met me for a housing meeting one days. She had very strange rules and got me frustrated. I had to walk on eggshells for her but it was not good enough. She finally yelled at me saying, "I don't trust you. You just want a roof over your head!" I came to several offices crying over that lady until my landlord agreed to keep me as his tenant.

    One lady was my "friend" for 15 years until she realize I refused to absorb or embrace religious narcissism, platitudes, and some statements false Christians made about God and life in general. She got angry with me when my life situations did not improve or I did not become a religious narc as some people she hung out with. She was sort of like your false Christian friend except she did not curse me or tell me of her predictions of curse. She was sort of a wacko religious lady who prayed 8 hours per day and visited people. She tried to be nice and to make sure she treated me with respect. However, she got nasty with me after I left Las Vegas and when she learned I refused to be "mean" or absorb some platitudes she and her friends could stomach.


    1. Yes narcs "curse" us in every way and when this one did curses, it was like your adoptive mother. Queen Spider gloated on my misfortunes too. I know I am working hard to come out of the self-blame for health problems and poverty. I tried to be a responsible person most of my adult life. Narcs love to play blame and shame games.

      It makes sense this lady was gloating at my misfortunes. While I talk openly about life here on this blog, IRL, I am limiting that to the closest of friends, and making sure not to tell too many problems. The friendship was based on intellectual discussions and bible studies, a "lighter" on in the beginning. I have had to adjust my belief that if someone shared deep personal troubles with you, that it was save to do it with them. This is on boundary I always had intact, never sharing personal stuff with people who were not sharing things with me but I have been burned three times, thinking people who were opening up to me desired for me to do likewise.

      I think some people will befriend troubled people or people with intense challenges because it makes them feel better about themselves. This applies to the one very wealthy friend I departed from, in the Army, whose parents were mega-multimillionaires. She basically was "slumming" with me in college. I never saw her in person later and there was a reason for that.

      Others will exploit disabled people. They will think "I am a better person" then so and so and act accordingly. Some of course will do "project" works and turn people into "charity projects". Some real help can come from real friends, but when the focus is on "fixing" someone, things have already gone off the rails.

      I agree about new Christians being targeted. I met Mrs. Curses when I was a New Christian online. Also people who are poor are exploited in some churches. It is better to get help from churches where things are formal, and people are not using the poor for narcissistic supply.

      Yes I was still in touch with my narc family--I openly warn about LC being dangerous because I thought I would be okay with the grey rock approach for years, and it only hurt me. So yes I was very vulnerable.

      I think people like this are dangerous too. She had others get more involved with her deliverance in person and in coming to her house. I live too far away.

      I hope she does not have a relationship with the catfish or any within my family too. I don't think she is the same person as the catfish since I heard a different voice on a phone from a different state for the catfish, but yeah in this world I think anything is possible now.

      I think many people feel better about themselves getting involved with troubled people. I noticed with some ex-friends who were toxic I walked away from, one other one, would only befriend other disabled and/or poor people. The wealthy high up in the Army woman, also befriended mostly disabled or other poorer women even as her family was at multimillionaire status.

      There is huge classism and snobbishness here. I talked to one very severe poor friend in another town once, and she told me, "I am too poor to make friends", but I told her I understood exactly what she meant. I think it is better to hide one's poverty as much as possible because it can bring the predators out. People who are disabled, or poor especially at the lowest tiers of USA society, need to protect themselves even that much more.


    2. I am glad you got away from controlling older women too. All of these ex-narcs and toxic friends except the college friend were at least 12-15 years older then me. I think older women who try to control younger women definitely have something wrong with them. ACONs also need to be careful of seeking out parental figures to replace their own bad parents or putting a "friend" in authoritarian roles. This is something I finally have broken out of and I have told myself now, "You are too old for mentors". The only real friendship is an equal one.

      I was told too what to say, how to control my voice, and how to be with others. I believe too my Aspergers also definitely put me in danger of this to a severe extent. When my hearing and health problems lowered my ability to fit in socially even more, some were angry, and wanted to "change" me. I was not doing any harm to anyone but they seemed like they wanted to play Pygmalion games on me. One major rule now is to stay away from anyone who wants to "fix" me.

      I am glad you cut off the cruel woman who told you to be less angry. That is none of her business. I don't want to deal with people who criticize or correct me or who I have to walk on eggshells for. I had enough of that with the familial narcs. I would rather be alone then deal with that garbage.
      LOL about her telling you that you wanted a roof over your head. Doesn't everyone? Homelessness isnt exactly health improving.
      The false Christians and I do not get on either. I cannot manufacture a Duggar looking life or have "sweet fellowship" with fresh cut flowers and tea shanties. I do not want to hear about how God will bless me and end my financial problems if I stop sinning so much or remove curses from my life. I do not want white picket fence people with their noses in the air upset because my husband has not worn a suit to the church. I have been happier staying out of the church world since I left my last IFB. I may still do church "activities" like food coop, community dinners, or bible studies, but life calmed down and a lot of pressure was taken off when I stopped trying to fit myself into the church world.

      Yes many want their "projects" to improve and if you don't they get angry. They all act like they speak for God, and Mrs. Curses did too.
      I am glad your false Christian friend did not go into curses but there sounds like there were other similarities. Mine fasted and prayed constantly even going without eating except for juice for 40 days. I am not a person into religious suffering or austerity. I've had enough involuntary austerity in my life.

      I got tired of platitudes too and being told God had a plan for my life and other religious nonsense. I also have had a lot of thoughts about how many Christians are mean to others and how authoritarianism and other bad developments in the Christian world, have affected people in general.


  5. I hope that evil woman left you alone since you went NC with her. I will continue to pray that God will keep you safe from too many narcs and evil people while you are in an adjustment from having narc friends and relatives to being around with non-narc people. I'm sorry to hear that you have a hard time finding good local friends. It might take you several months to a year before you find good, normal friends. It took me several years of going NC to find mine. At that time, I was not looking very hard to find friends. I was interested in my hobby, working, saving money for college, and getting settled down in my new town.

    I remember the last time I had a hard time finding local friends was during my high school days, when I still lived with adopted narc mother. After I left in 1986, my adopted narc mother smeared against me with several well-to-do classmates who looked like they were going places. These classmates turned out to be narcs. At the same time, other people stopped listening to adopted narc mother because they saw what happened to my adopted siblings and that I was being screwed over.

    I hope someday soon you will get your moments of being free from narcs. You might see them locally but they will not be in your life, in a way they will not affect you as much as they do today.

    1. I have been left alone. Thanks for your prayers for my safety. I appreciate them and will pray for you.
      Ollie Matthews did a video saying that healing from ACON abuse can take a long time. I ended 44 years of abuse, [well I had a break for three years during the first NC] so I have to be fair to myself and know I am unraveling some deep knots. He said the effects of decades of abuse doesn't just end in a short period of time. It only has occurred to me how my mother's severe sociopathic abuse played out in my life, even seeing friends in a more powerful position over me was messed up. This is how I ended up with people who just wanted to "fix" me, because I never was good enough for my mother and playing this out in different areas of my life.

      I believe too when we became poor here, and taken back to Chicago era poverty it made me especially vulnerable. We did not get as poor as I was in Chicago, we have kept eating and have decent safe housing, but this gave me emotional and other triggers that have been severe.

      I am sorry your mother turned classmates against you. Anyone my mother ever talks to gets a poor picture of me, so I was fortunate to be in other towns. Here too narcs can use social status and snobbery as some of their devices.

      I hope I can be free of narcs for good. I have cut off a lot of people, I may even have some kind of ACON record for the most people I had to walk away from LOL, but it's all for the better. Thanks for your posts.

  6. I know the type. There seems to be quite a few Christian women(and men,too) who are into all the "prophetic" and "deliverance" stuff and always speaking for God. I' m so tired of all of it! I have a "friend" that I' ve known for twenty some years who has been into all of those things. Whatever she was "into" at the time she thought I needed to also be involved in it.
    I have no use for any of that anymore. She's listening to some really weird stuff online now and tries to get me to listen to it with her. She's always been very controlling but isn't even aware that she is. She seems so "sweet" and "loving" to everyone and people were always so drawn to her.
    I can see through it now and don't see her much anymore or do what she says.
    I'm really sorry that you had that Mrs. Curses in your life, too, and the abuse she put you through. We really do have to be careful who we let into our life.

    1. It's too bad you knew the type too pegjo. One thing, I want to warn of, I was in IFB churches and talking to people of that ilk, that even if one avoids the charismatic and Pentecostal churches where these teachings are the strongest about "deliverance" and "prophecy", it is sneaking into many other places including the baptist world and other Christian churches.

      This particular lady came out of the baptist world though she was homechurching it at the time I met her but I have seen this stuff happening in other churches. Some are getting into health food too and will go into various forms of healing and well I have seen it all. Yes your "friend" of 20 years if she starts in with deliverance, or telling you what to eat or "prophesizing" over your life, RUN. Yes there is a lot of weird stuff online too. It's worse when they appear kind and loving but are complete control freaks. I would limit contact with this woman. When I see uber-false religious women like this, I part ways now. Religion can be like a showtime to narcs where they claim to have "special powers" I don't mind people warning of false churches and trying to get word about about things but when they want to manage people's personal lives, well you know something has gone wrong with them. Thanks for your kind words. I agree we have to be very careful who we let in. Also if one goes NC, they change, and the toxic and abusers get more exposed.

  7. Hi Peeps,
    I have tried a couple of times to get through with my message, had to enable cookies I guess. There's been a lot said since then, hopefully this will still be relevant.
    I too feel ashamed about allowing myself to be taken in and abused by my family. While it is not "spiritual abuse" per we, I think it still carries all the beytrayl and feelings of grief and shame that insure afterwards. No one likes to feel the fool.
    That it really a long relationship you had with this woman. Ten years is a long time, which must have made it hurt that much more and made the grieving process that longer or at least that more hurtful. But what was your crime in all of this? I know we tend to always look for our part in things, mostly because we don't want it to happen again, but also to see what our part (or fault was). As ACONS this is familiar territory. Also, as we know, our boundary line is inherently defective, in that we we try and intellectualize the mistakes of others, and no doubt end up overlooking more than we should in the process. I'm not saying that you did that in this case, only that if you feel you delayed or tried to work through and avoid the ultimate outcome, that is probably part of it.
    I don't see anything you have to be ashamed of, but I understand the feelings. The woman in your case crossed boundaries she had no right to, and suggested things she never should have. Of course, it sounds like she was projecting. It sounds as if somehow something about your circumstances triggered something within herself, perhaps with her own family and her "abuse" history. It's too bad she wasn't able to handle her own problems better, and it ended up costing you the friendship. I wouldn't blame you for having some feelings of resentment about that fact either. I know I have them, for the time and considerable effort I put in with my brother and the pile I got back in return. I would have preferred he had never come back into my life again, based on how it ended up.
    Lest I not be clear on this, I never gave of myself expecting anything in return, other than the same honesty and good intentions for a good relationship. Instead, I was betrayed, and once again placed in a position of pawn for my mother's I'll will.
    Anyway, I found all of what you said here, including the article to be insightful, interesting and helpful. Thank you for bravery in sharing. Also, anyone would be fortunate to have you as a friend. She definitely blew it!

    1. Hi Michelle, I am glad you could get your message through. Remember I have to approve the message too for them to show.

      Sorry you feel ashamed about being taken in by your family and abused. I know for me these bad "friendships" got mixed into the same stew like with the family. Being an ACON is not easy at all.
      Yes even the non spiritual abuse like I had with this woman carries the same feelings of grief and shame. I understand you rather having your brother never come back to just abuse you again.

      Yes 10 years is a long time. I had another 30 year friendship end too, I haven't written about that one, but when I went NC there was a lot of changes. So many people treating me the same as my family and me putting up with it thinking that was "normal".

      Thanks for asking what my crime was in this? I just wanted a normal friendship where someone felt bonded and connected to me and didn't want to busy themselves with "fixing" me. The self esteem fall out of this stuff can be hard. So you were right to ask that, what did I do wrong? Us ACONs blame ourselves too often for the "craziness" of other people just like the other commenter wrote.


    2. I know I would put up with bad stuff making excuses for people, "oh they are very sick, like with the catfish, she sometimes would insult me in a passive aggressive fashion but I would think "Oh she is bedbound, her life is hard--my life is hard enough, I am semi-bedbound but can walk so my empathy would be used against me. Same here, I would think "Okay maybe she is getting loopy with these curses stuff because of her past abuse history and there was times I was guilty of humoring her but even that was trying to be NICE. I guess that does get us in trouble, we may endless leeway for others while they have none for us and move stricter and stricter goal posts and make demands. It is ironic to me how I allowed someone living off their family to tell me I was a "slave" to social security. I didn't have someone to go run to. The narcs got us so busy looking at our own faults, it almost cancelled reality and it brings in the abusers.

      So yes we overlook way too much. It did happen in this case, where I was thinking of the past friendship. There was one time she drove a stake in me saying "I never really was your friend I only got with you because God told me to deliver you" That was near the end.

      I agree major boundaries were crossed and there could have been projection too. She was an ACON but from what I could tell still in contact with the majority of her living relatives. Yes resentment is a natural emotion. With your brother, I gave mine leeway, remember I went NC with him LAST. He always chose my mother. I just gave myself more place to be hurt. Yes allowing these people second chances can bring in a lot of pain. Feel for you on that one. With wills in the mix, siblings betray. Mine are glad I am gone, that means an estate split in 2 instead of three. My sister never was upset I walked in fact her non-reaction said I should have done it long ago, and I really had no relationship with this person who even hid having cancer from me.

      Thanks for the compliments regarding my article. It was hard to write about but I hope I can help someone avoid religious and spiritual abuse. Many ACONS who may turn to ministers, counselors, and others as they even seek to break away from abusive families, may find themselves getting a double dose of abuse. Thanks for writing anyone would be fortunate to have me as a friend, Michelle :)

  8. If deliverance means what they are talking about there would be no more disabilities, no more pain, no more suffering. So I get confused, that to me, sounds like what its supposed to be like in heaven, like the epistles taught. I don't dare talk of the fear I live and breathe everyday to anyone in church, they will think I'm apostating the church. I'm not supposed to have fear, but try to tell that to my body, and shaky movements. They see it, not a lot of people mention it to me, since my anxiety is physical, I wonder why womeone isn't bashing me over the head.

    Sorry to hear of your spiritual abuse. Financial gain is all these people have. Stuff don't matter, and I remember telling someone that once, but to them stuff is proof you are living a Christian life, otherwise we are apostates.

    1. I don't believe in deliverance anymore in the way these people were selling it where it was supposed to fix everything about one's life and there would be no more sickness, pain or disability. The deliverance folks sure help out the powers that be telling poor people and ill people sickened by GMOs, modern life, that it is all their individual responsibility, lack of faith and sin life failings. I agree it sounds like heaven. I don't believe in faith healers either and thought those were all fakes. There's many atheists who ask questions like "How come no one's amputated leg grows back?"

      Yes don't talk about PTSD or CPTSD or fear or anxiety in church settings. I got in trouble though for a lesser extent on that one. I was told fear was a sin. Even the catfish had a bugaboo about that one, getting angry at me for being afraid. I don't trust people who never have emotions of fear when they are facing death even or danger. That seems to point to sociopathy to me. My mother was never afraid. Many false churches will teach fear is a sin and you do not trust in God. They will claim even fearing death is a sin. It is nuts. God gave us natural emotions.

      I wasn't financially abused, which made this more insidious but many of the deliverance types do charge money and lots of it. I know I told this woman once, "you are getting like the gyspies who expect 10,000 to remove a death curse, you better remember I am broke." LOL

      You know when I was UU, some of us all prided ourselves on rationality to be atheists, and humanists. This "dark" side of fake Christianity is scaring many away from the faith. My Christian faith survived intact, because scripture tells of the realities of this world but many are living in delusion here. They want candy-land dreams in the regular world, thinking if they don't miss a step, God will reward them with endless blessings here.

  9. Yesterday, I found a post on Facebook about a spiritually abusive pastor who rejected my friend request and ignored me on Facebook. His friend who posted a picture of him made a comment that the pastor's mother is going to heaven. I was very upset based on the way the pastor treated me. I began to wonder if these people are deluding themselves. They are not Christians, and they are fooling themselves thinking they are.
    The abusive pastor and his friends have been leaders in Intervarsity Christian Fellowship (IVCF) 15 to 25 years ago. They published their books in Intervarsity Press and went to a theology school in Southern California. They have been doing "good works." If we are aware of churches history, we know that doing "good works" is a part of Catholic's tradition. I learned from a friend that Intervarsity is connected with Catholic churches.
    Members of IVCF and their leaders are biased against true poor people and ACONs. When I attended meetings and gatherings in the 1990s, I met several students claimed they were poor. However, they were not victims of narcissistic abuses. They did not have malignant narc parents. On the other hand, they might be narcs. Several leaders at IVCF told me that Jesus changed their heart's desire and made them feel thankful even though they were "poor."
    When I came to the first IVCF party during the summer, a leader of Intervarsity told me that money was not everything. I was suspicious that he only said that because he came from a middle-class or wealthy family. He married a middle-class woman who felt the same as he did. I did not respond back to him. Other middle class "Christians," said the same things too and got mad when I told them that poor people do not feel the same way, including those who said they did. I told several IVCF leaders that some people lied about their feelings in order to impress them and that God knows their hearts. God knows that they are not being truthful.

    1. Sorry this pastor ignored you. You know some of those antichrist followers know when a real Christian is around and run for the hills.
      I don't trust Christians who act all happy about death. Notice they are giving platitudes even about their own mother's death. She's in heaven. Not crying or saying "I miss my mother!" I am thinking this was a nice normal mother not NM. You know when people have shut down normal human emotions it's creepy. Christian bots who start going on about heaven, when their mother screamed and shuffled off the mortal coil in the cancer ward, kind of creep me out. I believe in heaven don't get me wrong but don't you MISS them. What in the heck is wrong with these people.

      I think they are false teachers too.

      Intervarsity is very ecumenical with the Catholic church. When I was Catholic I actually thought they were a Catholic group.

      I am sorry they treated you badly. I've encountered groups like that, middle class or above, and judgmental of anyone who does not "fit the norm". I forgot to write something on this article how Mrs. Curses told me Aspergers was from demons. I managed to talk her out of that one a little bit, or she at least conceded so I would not cut her off at that point.

      I have had middle class Christians tell me I complain about money too much and tell me that God must be chastising me. Many are Republicans who would lectured me on not working hard enough and why does husband not work normal job, and that I must have done something wrong.
      Many follow the Republican party far more when it comes to the poor rather then the bible.

      Many are false and hide real feelings. Oh thinking of bible verses here, thinking of those with the "appearance of holiness"...

  10. In 1995, I had nothing. I called an Intervarsity intern on the phone. He happened to be a close friend of a leader. He told me that I refused to come back to my abusive malignant narc mother because I rejected Jesus Christ. He did not show empathy, so I screamed and cried on the phone. Because I did not know about covert narcissism, I did not end the phone conversations quickly.
    We talked about money, being popular, being loved, and having a marriage and family life. He claimed that when he became a Christian, he became less popular and his girlfriend broke up with him. He probably became unpopular with his high school friends but not with people in Intervarsity. He also told me that he was broke and he could not understand why I refuse to come back to my abusive adopted narc mother. He was adamant in his belief that I refused to submit to abuse because I rejected Jesus Christ. I felt I was talking to my malignant adopted narc mother. He asked me if I accepted Jesus Christ after we talked. I did not respond and told him I had to go.
    I called my godfather who agreed to lend me money. My godfather told me that these young people were spoiled kids. The intern ended our conversation by telling me that he was losing faith and he wanted to talk to the leader.
    There was one issue I was not aware of at that time. Anti-marriage and family feminism was the reason why I did not get married. Leaders of IVCF supported toxic feminism and narc women who wanted to be more like men. These people in Intervarsity support feminism. I did not notice their support for feminism until I contacted them in Facebook years later.
    When I visited the IVCF leader's house several days later, he gave me a look as he has disowned me. His friend is a pastor today rejected my friend request and then blocked me from sending him another request. These people were very rude to me on Facebook. They did not respond to my PMs on Facebook. They ignored my PMs and refuse to let me visit them when they visited my city. A very few click likes in my posts. They probably unfollowed me. When I graduated from a prestigious university, only one IVCF member clicked likes on my posts.
    They are doing "good works," but they are not doing ministry to poor people. The IVCF is a college ministry. Today, a majority of students are middle class and wealthy. Students from poor and working-class family are enrolling in a community college or a university that provides them with the full financial-aid package.

    1. Sorry you had nothing. It sounds like they wanted to lecture you instead of giving concrete help. Yes many of Christians, some don't know better but smakintosh did a video on this recently will say reconcile with abusive relatives. This happened to me. In college, I was a UU but knew some born again Christians, I did here the gospel from them but many would tell me to be kind to abusive parents and pray for them to come around. This was not good advice.
      Sorry he made you cry and scream. I think he was being covert and hitting buttons. Some will pretend to help while being hurtful.
      Many believe in the false forgiveness where evil is enabled and it shows their dark hearts. I am glad your godfather helped and saw through these naive or in some cases wicked young people. He told you he was losing faith, wow, that was not that much of a test of it.

      Feminism took over me too. I married late because of feminism and the feminism of my family hurt me badly as they denied me my sexuality and modern feminism helped them with this. I am sorry you did not marry. I wearied of hearing about STRONG WOMEN and the only women counting who were strong career go getters and ball breakers. When I hear that stuff now I want to scream.

      One has to watch out for the patriarchial nuts, like the Duggars, but yes, there are the feminist types too.

      Sorry they were rude to you on Facebook. I think that is where you see true feelings come out, they may have treated you "nice" out of a false religious face, but there was nothing real behind it. I don't like fake Christians like that.

  11. They also love narcs. They are opening doors for narcs to get involved with the ministry. They place religious narcs in higher place them they do to me. One IVCF alumni produces Satanic pictures for the mainstream media and corporations. He looks like a narc in pictures. IVCF leaders and members believe that religious narcs will go to heaven and I will go to hell. They think religious narcs are Christians and I rejected Jesus Christ. Yesterday, I was so upset after I saw somebody’s posts that an abusive pastor is going to heaven that I wrote PMs to several people I met in Intervarsity. I said, “Hi XXXX<
    This is XXXX again. Sorry to bother you again. I have a question and hope you will not get offended. I want to apologize in advance if I offend you.
    I want to know if you and your friends are ministering to socio-economically disadvantaged people and those who are losing faith because they dealt with religious abuse. I have been talking to economically disadvantaged Christians who told me they left the church because of Calvinistic, anti-poor people messages, and that pastors did not care about them.
    I am attending several good churches in my area. Unfortunately, my friends live out-of-state and some live in a small town where there are fewer resources and choices.
    I understand you are ministering to college students, so you did not have exposure to socio-economically disadvantaged Christians.
    Hope you had a great year so far.
    This morning, I added this message to one person:
    • “I hope I am not offending you. My friends and I have been talking about false Christians, churches, and Christian groups who hurt us. Have you dealt with disadvantaged people who talked about these issues with you?”
    I received no responses! How could they be Christians if they treat poor people like that? Oh yes, I remember several Intervarsity people liked my malignant adopted narc mother.

    1. I like those messages you sent them. I think it says everything they did not respond. In the IFB talking about poor people is impossible. They are hidden away and not discussed. I was working class during my years in the rural IFB and even then there was still some chasm, but it really got far worse here. They are indoctrinated by right wing politicians who say the poor of all races are morally deficient and have made "poor choices". I saw this book written for mainstream Christians once called "Hardliving People" and it had so many stereotypes about the poor, I wanted to burn it. Don't get me started on the David Ramsey brainwashathons too. If they liked your adoptive narc mother, that's more hints of there own narcissism.

    2. Tell me if you do get an answer, Ill be interested to read it.

    3. No, they did not answer. It was almost two days since I sent them a PM. Thank you for telling me that you like my PM and it does not sound bad to you.

      I am angry with these people and think you are right about their attitudes toward me. They did not like me 20-25 years ago except for one man who hung out with me and invited me over. Other people used me as their charity case or a project friend. I did not want to be a charity case.

      My godfather used to tell me that some people used me in order to get respect from people who had money, not from God. If they cared about God and Jesus, they would not have used me and then treated me rudely in Facebook. True Christian people don't hurt those who are struggling and poor.

      My godfather thought these people looked down on me because of my financial circumstances and I was not spoiled as they were. These pastors are false preachers and hypocrites. They prefer to minister to middle class people and charity cases who never complain about their hard lives.

      When I look at pictures of these people, I also noticed their eyes and body languages, facial expressions, sneers, "meek" look, sneaky looks are similar to what my adopted narc mother displayed. When I started to heal, I started to find Christian and seeker friends who do not display similar facial expressions and eye languages as these toxic people did.

    4. Oh, I forgot to mention one thing. When I was in sixth-grade, a classmate told me she hated a mid-sized girl she hung out with. She only hung out with her because the mid-sized girl was not popular. I reunited with the mid-sized girl in and emails. She looks good today. Her mother was skinny so it helped her to keep her weight down over the years. In pictures, she looks like she is about 150 to 200 lbs.

      I had instances of being two-faced by "nice" old classmates who rejected my friend requests. They did not respond to my PMs. One women rudely told me she did not know me because I changed my names from my adoption names to my original name. Based on my friend's and my experiences with these two-faced, nice classmates, it sounds like we had budding narc classmates. I checked back on several pages of these narc classmates and noticed that these people show similar eye languages, dead-eyes, and facial experience as my adopted narc mother did. These narcs were "nice" kids but they were not really nice people. They were two-faced kids who became covert narc adults.

  12. Hi Peeps,
    My internet service was down yesturday, thanks for your words back. I wanted to comment on a couple of things. I too am full NC with all of my family (what's left of it anyway). Whenever my husband goes (should that be before me) I expect to be completely alone. Not the way I would have wanted it, but the alternative doesn't work for me.
    I was doing housework a couple of days ago (am in the process of picking up the pieces of all that "piled up") and I was listening to a show about unexpected "animal friends". This was about a cat who had just given birth to kittens and a baby duckling that had just hatched and somehow orphaned (not sure how, didn't hear that part), but the baby duckling was seeking warmth and cuddled along with the kittens, and even ended up suckling. The cat accepted this duckling as part of her litter. The story went on about how the duckling quickly the litter and about the mother cat trying to herd her back in and keep the bond amongst it and the other kittens, and it struck me that it was no wonder that us ACONS (I) are so confused as to why we would be discarded, especially from a Narc or MN mother. It just completely defies the laws of nature. And in the example of the cat and duckling, even more so, in that it shows the instinct of "motherhood" trumping that of even natural predator/prey. Again, it's no wonder we spend decades beating our heads against the wall trying to make sense of it. The story went on to include the opinions of scientists as to how this little duckling came at just the right time and how a couple hours later it would have been a different story (were we left somewhere in the maternity ward too long after birth) but I'll leave that "theorizing" up to the scientists, as I have seen many other examples of animals in nature acting more like family than my own.
    Michelle continuing ...

    1. Hi Michelle, thanks for your words, so you are full NC with your family too. I will be completely alone if my husband goes before me too. It is scary I know. We really had no alternative, sitting there and taking their abuse would have killed me the way my health was going.

      I read a book once about those animal friends and have seen them online like on Facebook, a dog befriending a duck and animal mothers taking in other baby animals. We do get confused because it does defie nature. I never had a child but even I think how can you have a baby and hate it? I don't think I am really Queen Spiders protoge, but I am thinking of NMs in general. What are they thinking to carry a baby for 9 months and then thinking I am going to destroy you? Even those animals with no human abilities were nicer then our mothers.
      LOL maybe some ACONs were left too long in the maternit ward, but yeah let scientists study that one.

      I agree some of the animals do a better job at motherhood.

  13. Michelle continuing ...
    Another show came on later, which also struck me. It was a CSI episode about a class of University students getting to interview a jailed "Serial Killer". One student asked him if any of his female victims had fought back? He named a couple women that had fought back initially, and then made the statement about the succumbing part saying that, "If you bring a human being to the brink of death and then offer them a way back to salvation, they will take it every time and even thank you for it. The rest becomes very easy after that.". I thought, "Wow, so that's how it works, huh?". I started drawing immediate parallels between this and my mother's last curtain "end-game" and how I had even "gone along for the ride" (even though extremely guardedly) through this final phase of "hoovering" by her, secretly hoping it would lead to the road of "salvation" of an important "natural relationship" gone bad, and therefore all would be "right again" with the world. Seeing the parallels between the manipulation tactics of the "serial killer" and my would be "mother" gave me the usual shivers!
    So, honestly, Peeps, it's no wonder you find yourself (and we) at times, out on a park or other bench, taking in the sunshine and the air of your newfound NC life, and occasionally allowing your mind to drift towards making sense of it all, in order to lay it to rest and be at peace. I just don't know if it's entirely possible, in that it defies the natural order of things.

    1. Your story of the serial killer TV show reminds me of a show I watched today, it was called the Bad Son, I guess this guy would be a co-psychopath with his psychopath "mommy", and one thing struck me, as his mother helped him murder young girls, and do all sorts of bad deeds, the facial expressions were all too familar that the actress used. It kind of creeped me out. I think I closed out that thinking before, thinking "but she's my mother" but I have to be careful with some of those crime shows, because I keep having thoughts like that I never had before...just on the whole attitude, nose in the air, coldness, hardness etc.

      Ive heard other serial killers on TV and in books talk about throwing a few crumbs and forming Stockholm Syndrome in their victims. I too fell for the "I want to make this relationship right, gambits, even after the breaking of my first no contact and being LC. I was blaming myself, I was a "bad daughter", my mother "was trying". She "just didn't understand me" blah blah blah

      I am horrified myself of all the abuse I took while trying to placate a monster. Sure they throw those crumbs or throw you off by being nice, or "generous" in the case of mine. The serial killers are masters of manipulation so they all kind of go to the same school.

      Yeah I often try to make sense of it all. It's all insane. I do like my time out in the park left alone, LOL You are right all this stuff is out of the natural order. We are trying to understand things that make no sense. These people defied the natural order.